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The sin that is a that is a "noun" (nowhere in Scripture is a difference mentioned--you have a man-made construct of Churchianity) would not apply unequally to some people and not others. Therefore you state infants die unsaved in a state of sin. Unless, of course, you have that other man-made construct of "age of accountability."
The OT God had Israelites rejoicing for bashing the brains out of sinful infants whose parents were the enemies of Israel. If you believe that, don't tell us you are innocent of their murders, your heart is just as murderous--and just as guilty.
I guess when Jesus said "Suffer the little children to come to me," it was really a mistranslation. He meant suffocate the little children who DON'T come to me.
Dodge all you like, but that god is no different than dozens of other pagan gods. Perhaps you should close your ears to Churchianity's teaching and read about how those idiotic doctrines came about. Try reading the late French theologian/philosopher Jacque Ellul's book, THE SUBVERSION OF CHRISTIANTY. Right now you are a victim of the subversion with those ideas. But it doesn't have to remain that way. Read books with opposing ideas and test them. Your heart knows better than to swallow wholesale the espousal of ideas from a paid clergy. They have a vested interest in keeping you ignorant, unthinking, and passing off as the "will of God" ideas that don't make sense to any person of reasonably human morality. They even criticize human morality so that they can substitute their own.
Right now it appears you have swallowed it hook, line, and sinker. I know, I used to preach (literally) that garbage until God told me to ask myself if it made any sense at all. It didn't, it doesn't.
But if you won't tread those murky, scary waters of being outside the group think, you'll die in your own sins---not one of which was originally from Adam. They are all yours by choice. Ignorance is not a sin unless you know other ideas exist and need to be explored but refuse to do so.
You know now. Since Ellul may be a bit of a tough read,start as a babe and read Michael Camp's CONFESSIONS OF A BIBLE THUMPER, another fundamentalist (and former African missionary) who found freedom in Jesus Christ to think for himself. Read again Hosea 4:6 and apply it to yourself. Have you considered that it might be you who is rejecting knowledge God wants you to have? And you appear new to CD, so perhaps God did not bring you to this forum to share or reinforce what you already believe, but to open your heart to new knowledges? You will never know without launching that ship into unknown waters. Ask your pastor if you should. His/her discouragement or mocking ought to be a clue that you should. I doubt you are going to have a road to Damascus experience. This may be the only time He sends you a message.
Good luck. Please don't return to your regular programming.
Your first paragraph reveals your ignorance and the following ones reveal your arrogance, Besides your arrogance and ignorance revealed in your first sentences, the rest of your post reveals flaws in your beliefs that shows it would be easier to teach a pig to dance than for you to learn the truth because of all the lies you have already fallen for
As far as you saying sin as a noun does not appearing in the scriptures is as wrong as wrong can be. Only one who has swallowed lies from the father of all lies could ever be as ignorant and arrogant as you are
A simple visit to a good lexicon shows that in both Hebrew and Greek sin as a noun often appears as either an offering for a sin or as principality when sin as a noun defines it as a life giving force albeit it sentenced to death as seen "in Adam" (spirit of man) where all men die because of the sin that lives in man that brings forth both death and sins that are verbs
In Ro.7:23 the word "sin" is used as a noun in the "law of sin" that is not the law of God that was written on stone but an unclean evil principality living within Paul's members that caused him to do what he did not want to do or kept him from doing what he wanted to do. The word "law" as it is used here is the same as how it is used as "the law of gravity" as something that is always present and in force unless or until overcome by a more powerful law. In the natural this can be seen when laws associated with flight (lift propulsion etc) over come the law of gravity as long as they remain in force but let the fuel run out and gravity takes over as the plane comes back to earth. This works the same way between the law of sin in man versus the law of faith of the truth of Jesus Christ in us. In realm of spirit that is more powerful than the physical realm, the law of faith that is based upon the truth of Jesus Christ (and only the truth) can overcome the "law of sin" because Jesus has been given a name greater than any other name or principality that in includes the messenger of satan still alive in Christians today just as it was in Paul nearly 2000 years ago.
Speaking of Jesus look at the how the word "sin" is used as a noun in Heb.9:28 because He appeared as a sin offering yet we still have Christians today who think Jesus became sin for them because of not knowing the difference between sin as a noun versus sin as a verb that would allow them to see the truth of "Jesus; being a sin offering (a noun and not a verb) for their sin both in this verse as well as in 2Corr, 5:21.
This is simple baby food in the Bible yet you have failed to understand even a simple truth that sin does appear as noun throughout the Bible that you could have learned just by picking up a Strongs lexicon and reading what is says about sin. Unfortunately, for you to learn and UNDERSTAND how sin appears and works in english as for determining when it is a noun versus when it is a verb, would first require a spiritual enema needed to flush you of all the lies you have consumed, have become "one with' and most unfortunately, teach to others.
If I thought you could grasp it I would teach you how David who was legally (lawfully) conceived yet was still conceived in sin, (Ps 51:5) not because there was any sin with the marriage of Jesse to David's mother but the sin that is a noun was passed down to his mother in the spirit of man in the "life" living with the sperm of his father that impregnated his mother. Then maybe you could understand why Jesus never had any sin handed down to Him from His Father the Holy Spirit of God rather than having the any sin from Joseph
Simply said if you cannot keep up with the foot soldiers in the NT you will never be able to run with the horsemen needed to able to understand the prophecy in the OT for why God had the babies of pagan people or of any other people killed in masse was for the sin they represented but this is way to much for you in your current sin of unbelief in the truth that is causing you to miss the mark by a very wide margin…………… ann this is me saying it very kindly to you.
Meanwhile, the sooner you realize that the same God incarnate whose love for us ran red at the cross is the same God who wrote the law condemning people to death in the OT, the sooner you will be on your way to something good knowledge wise
If you have the testosterone to admit the truth that you are way wrong starting with your first paragraph, take your confession to God where you cam also confess your arrogance that would be the first step in the right direction for you
Then we can start over and begin with teaching you the truth that will destroy all the lies and false doctrines you currently are under the spell of.
On the other hand if you cannot see or admit the simple truth about how you have erred and are full of evil arrogance, it is not just because satan has deceived you but because God has blinded you and is sending you delusions so you will believe in many if not all of satan's lies…….. if this is the case I cannot help you
Fair enough?
Last edited by Livelystone; 01-16-2016 at 07:30 AM..
Let me join the chorus appreciating our Internet Pastor's sermon in the church of Christ followers! Well said.
Your internet pastor has just been proven wrong
What he needs figure is why he made such a stupid mistake………… satan is not that dumb and his works are almost always much harder to prove wrong than what WD's errors are that any of you could have found out just by picking up a a decent lexicon
Your first paragraph reveals your ignorance and the following ones reveal your arrogance, Besides your arrogance and ignorance revealed in your first sentences, the rest of your post reveals flaws in your beliefs that shows it would be easier to teach a pig to dance than for you to learn the truth because of all the lies you have already fallen for
As far as you saying sin as a noun does not appearing in the scriptures is as wrong as wrong can be. Only one who has swallowed lies from the father of all lies could ever be as ignorant and arrogant as you are
A simple visit to a good lexicon shows that in both Hebrew and Greek sin as a noun often appears as either an offering for a sin or as principality when sin as a noun defines it as a life giving force albeit it sentenced to death as seen "in Adam" (spirit of man) where all men die because of the sin that lives in man that brings forth both death and sins that are verbs
In Ro.7:23 the word "sin" is used as a noun in the "law of sin" that is not the law of God that was written on stone but an unclean evil principality living within Paul's members that caused him to do what he did not want to do or kept him from doing what he wanted to do. The word "law" as it is used here is the same as how it is used as "the law of gravity" as something that is always present and in force unless or until overcome by a more powerful law. In the natural this can be seen when laws associated with flight (lift propulsion etc) over come the law of gravity as long as they remain in force but let the fuel run out and gravity takes over as the plane comes back to earth. This works the same way between the law of sin in man versus the law of faith of the truth of Jesus Christ in us. In realm of spirit that is more powerful than the physical realm, the law of faith that is based upon the truth of Jesus Christ (and only the truth) can overcome the "law of sin" because Jesus has been given a name greater than any other name or principality that in includes the messenger of satan still alive in Christians today just as it was in Paul nearly 2000 years ago.
Speaking of Jesus look at the how the word "sin" is used as a noun in Heb.9:28 because He appeared as a sin offering yet we still have Christians today who think Jesus became sin for them because of not knowing the difference between sin as a noun versus sin as a verb that would allow them to see the truth of "Jesus; being a sin offering (a noun and not a verb) for their sin both in this verse as well as in 2Corr, 5:21.
This is simple baby food in the Bible yet you have failed to understand even a simple truth that sin does appear as noun throughout the Bible that you could have learned just by picking up a Strongs lexicon and reading what is says about sin. Unfortunately, for you to learn and UNDERSTAND how sin appears and works in english as for determining when it is a noun versus when it is a verb, would first require a spiritual enema needed to flush you of all the lies you have consumed, have become "one with' and most unfortunately, teach to others.
If I thought you could grasp it I would teach you how David who was legally (lawfully) conceived yet was still conceived in sin, (Ps 51:5) not because there was any sin with the marriage of Jesse to David's mother but the sin that is a noun was passed down to his mother in the spirit of man in the "life" living with the sperm of his father that impregnated his mother. Then maybe you could understand why Jesus never had any sin handed down to Him from His Father the Holy Spirit of God rather than having the any sin from Joseph
Simply said if you cannot keep up with the foot soldiers in the NT you will never be able to run with the horsemen needed to able to understand the prophecy in the OT for why God had the babies of pagan people or of any other people killed in masse was for the sin they represented but this is way to much for you in your current sin of unbelief in the truth that is causing you to miss the mark by a very wide margin…………… ann this is me saying it very kindly to you.
Meanwhile, the sooner you realize that the same God incarnate whose love for us ran red at the cross is the same God who wrote the law condemning people to death in the OT, the sooner you will be on your way to something good knowledge wise
If you have the testosterone to admit the truth that you are way wrong starting with your first paragraph, take your confession to God where you cam also confess your arrogance that would be the first step in the right direction for you
Then we can start over and begin with teaching you the truth that will destroy all the lies and false doctrines you currently are under the spell of.
On the other hand if you cannot see or admit the simple truth about how you have erred and are full of evil arrogance, it is not just because satan has deceived you but because God has blinded you and is sending you delusions so you will believe in many if not all of satan's lies…….. if this is the case I cannot help you
Fair enough?
Let's put this one bed once and for all. Anyone who exalts the bible over the one it testifies to BE "THE" truth, everything they say no matter how convincing shouldn't be taken to seriously. Jesus said learn of "me", not learn about the bible, now if within the scriptures you find stuff that teaches you to walk the way he walked..... Then fair enough.
Let's put this one bed once and for all. Anyone who exalts the bible over the one it testifies to BE "THE" truth, everything they say no matter how convincing shouldn't be taken to seriously. Jesus said learn of "me", not learn about the bible, now if within the scriptures you find stuff that teaches you to walk the way he walked..... Then fair enough.
Not all spirits are holy and without the Bible you cannot discern who hearing from between the Holy Spirit of God or the spirit of evil that is the seed and messenger of satan that also lives in you
Furthermore, if you guys were really worshiping in the truth and spirit that you think you are, God would be witnessing you and you would have signs and wonders following your ministries just as those who are worshipping in spirit and in truth have signs and wonders following them………… but do you? No you do not!
………. and before you start quoting a verse you like that seems to make it seem that satan works miracles I suggest you go read what Jesus had to say about the house bezzlebub working miracles…….. and btw when a person dies their spirit returns to God alone and only God can raise the person back up alive.
Meanwhile, just the fact that you could catch the simple mistakes made by WD in his arrogant sin laden post proves you are not being led by the Holy Spirit
Not all spirits are holy and without the Bible you cannot discern who hearing from between the Holy Spirit of God or the spirit of evil that is the seed and messenger of satan that also lives in you
Furthermore, if you guys were really worshiping in the truth and spirit that you think you are, God would be witnessing you and you would have signs and wonders following your ministries just as those who are worshipping in spirit and in truth have signs and wonders following them………… but do you? No you do not!
………. and before you start quoting a verse you like that seems to make it seem that satan works miracles I suggest you go read what Jesus had to say about the house bezzlebub working miracles…….. and btw when a person dies their spirit returns to God alone and only God can raise the person back up alive.
Meanwhile, just the fact that you could catch the simple mistakes made by WD in his arrogant sin laden post proves you are not being led by the Holy Spirit
Fair Enough?
Poor, sad little man keeping his poor, sad little godling trapped inside a book.
Not all spirits are holy and without the Bible you cannot discern who hearing from between the Holy Spirit of God or the spirit of evil that is the seed and messenger of satan that also lives in you....
1If I speak with the tongues of men and of angels, but do not have love, I have become a noisy gong or a clanging cymbal. 2If I have the gift of prophecy, and know all mysteries and all knowledge; and if I have all faith, so as to remove mountains, but do not have love, I am nothing. 3And if I give all my possessions to feed the poor, and if I surrender my body to be burned, but do not have love, it profits me nothing.
4Love is patient, love is kind and is not jealous; love does not brag and is not arrogant, 5does not act unbecomingly; it does not seek its own, is not provoked, does not take into account a wrong suffered, 6does not rejoice in unrighteousness, but rejoices with the truth; 7bears all things, believes all things, hopes all things, endures all things.
8Love never fails; but if there are gifts of prophecy, they will be done away; if there are tongues, they will cease; if there is knowledge, it will be done away. 9For we know in part and we prophesy in part; 10but when the perfect comes, the partial will be done away. 11When I was a child, I used to speak like a child, think like a child, reason like a child; when I became a man, I did away with childish things. 12For now we see in a mirror dimly, but then face to face; now I know in part, but then I will know fully just as I also have been fully known. 13But now faith, hope, love, abide these three; but the greatest of these is love.
Let's put this one bed once and for all. Anyone who exalts the bible over the one it testifies to BE "THE" truth, everything they say no matter how convincing shouldn't be taken to seriously. Jesus said learn of "me", not learn about the bible, now if within the scriptures you find stuff that teaches you to walk the way he walked..... Then fair enough.
The thing about these forums is there isn't a scrap of evidence either way: to prove people do exalt the Bible or Jesus above one another - its just tid bits of 'principles here' and 'principles there' - no building precept upon precept. It needs a proper unabridged rendering for people to say what they have to say and get the full picture across.
I'll be honest, I'm swayed by the progressives on CD, and I like the cracked window philosophy of Warden - heck i may even go and read Camp's confessions (i like the cover of the book anyway), but there is no getting away from the prophetic nature of the OT, and what the law was meant to mean - and Jesus fulfilled all of it.
Also, for me, there is a deep calls unto deep - and a couple of years ago I 'discovered' the manifest sons of God teaching, which has been recently brought home / confirmed again as being the pattern of believers that God is raising up in the earth at the change of one epoch to another - we are at that dawn. We can be as progressive as we want to be, but if it's not "what the Father is doing" then we will not be doing what Jesus' many membered body of Sons is doing. We don't want to miss that - and I fear there's a whole generation of churched folk, including leaders, who are going to miss it.
Jesus was critical of the Pharisees for their righteousness not surpassing the law - the commandment to love (the OP topic) as far as I see it stops at just fulfilling the law. Going beyond that is being filled with the fulness of Christ and doing what the Father is doing, which includes the greater works. I'm not getting how talking about love to the nth degree on an internet forum brings the righteousness that God requires, that surpasses the law - it doesn't and cannot. There must be more.
Not all spirits are holy and without the Bible you cannot discern who hearing from between the Holy Spirit of God or the spirit of evil that is the seed and messenger of satan that also lives in you
Furthermore, if you guys were really worshiping in the truth and spirit that you think you are, God would be witnessing you and you would have signs and wonders following your ministries just as those who are worshipping in spirit and in truth have signs and wonders following them………… but do you? No you do not!
………. and before you start quoting a verse you like that seems to make it seem that satan works miracles I suggest you go read what Jesus had to say about the house bezzlebub working miracles…….. and btw when a person dies their spirit returns to God alone and only God can raise the person back up alive.
Meanwhile, just the fact that you could catch the simple mistakes made by WD in his arrogant sin laden post proves you are not being led by the Holy Spirit
Fair Enough?
Oh please lively, if Christ us in you, you use his discernment. It is what you have got that matters, the bible is a poor substitute for not knowing that you have Christ in you and by his knowledge of God we grow in the grace of God
If you were to convert 1 Corinthians 13; "love" to "Obedience", you would see things from Jesus point of view. Viewing Matthew 7;21,22,23,
Obedience to God MUST be the prime requisite.
Other wise ones superficial acts of "love" toward man are not of obedience, but self govern, which is sin.
The absence of obedience to God, is sin.
To know best how to love my brother, is to first ask God what should be done .
Not all spirits are holy and without the Bible you cannot discern who hearing from between the Holy Spirit of God or the spirit of evil that is the seed and messenger of satan that also lives in you.
Furthermore, if you guys were really worshiping in the truth and spirit that you think you are, God would be witnessing you and you would have signs and wonders following your ministries just as those who are worshiping in spirit and in truth have signs and wonders following them………… but do you? No you do not!
Where are these signs and wonders (outside of what you have experienced for yourself)?
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Let me join the chorus appreciating our Internet Pastor's sermon in the church of Christ followers! Well said.
