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Not a single thing in all your quotes contradicts what I have said. Learn something: look up "acquired characteristics, heredity" See if you can figure out why "as the twig is bent, so grows the tree" does not pass down to the seeds of that tree.
If the law of the seed was not in effect for Adam then the same law of the seed is not in effect for Christ the seed in you…………
Simply put means if this is so you are left without any hope
Hosea 4:6 My people are destroyed for lack of knowledge: because thou hast rejected knowledge, I will also reject thee, that thou shalt be no priest to me: seeing thou hast forgotten the law of thy God, I will also forget thy children
There is nothing contradicting about it at all……………. it is a manner of sin that is a noun versus sin that is a verb………. one is a principality while the other is an act. Sin that is a principality (defined as "life giving force" but already sentenced to death AKA the unclean spirit of man in all of mankind) was passed from Adam unto all and why wer are all under the curse of death including newborn babes aho have not sinned………. Amen? ……I think so!
Romans 5:14 Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come.
In the NT this referred to as a sin unto death versus there is a sin that is not unto death
The sin that is a that is a "noun" (nowhere in Scripture is a difference mentioned--you have a man-made construct of Churchianity) would not apply unequally to some people and not others. Therefore you state infants die unsaved in a state of sin. Unless, of course, you have that other man-made construct of "age of accountability."
The OT God had Israelites rejoicing for bashing the brains out of sinful infants whose parents were the enemies of Israel. If you believe that, don't tell us you are innocent of their murders, your heart is just as murderous--and just as guilty.
I guess when Jesus said "Suffer the little children to come to me," it was really a mistranslation. He meant suffocate the little children who DON'T come to me.
Dodge all you like, but that god is no different than dozens of other pagan gods. Perhaps you should close your ears to Churchianity's teaching and read about how those idiotic doctrines came about. Try reading the late French theologian/philosopher Jacque Ellul's book, THE SUBVERSION OF CHRISTIANTY. Right now you are a victim of the subversion with those ideas. But it doesn't have to remain that way. Read books with opposing ideas and test them. Your heart knows better than to swallow wholesale the espousal of ideas from a paid clergy. They have a vested interest in keeping you ignorant, unthinking, and passing off as the "will of God" ideas that don't make sense to any person of reasonably human morality. They even criticize human morality so that they can substitute their own.
Right now it appears you have swallowed it hook, line, and sinker. I know, I used to preach (literally) that garbage until God told me to ask myself if it made any sense at all. It didn't, it doesn't.
But if you won't tread those murky, scary waters of being outside the group think, you'll die in your own sins---not one of which was originally from Adam. They are all yours by choice. Ignorance is not a sin unless you know other ideas exist and need to be explored but refuse to do so.
You know now. Since Ellul may be a bit of a tough read,start as a babe and read Michael Camp's CONFESSIONS OF A BIBLE THUMPER, another fundamentalist (and former African missionary) who found freedom in Jesus Christ to think for himself. Read again Hosea 4:6 and apply it to yourself. Have you considered that it might be you who is rejecting knowledge God wants you to have? And you appear new to CD, so perhaps God did not bring you to this forum to share or reinforce what you already believe, but to open your heart to new knowledges? You will never know without launching that ship into unknown waters. Ask your pastor if you should. His/her discouragement or mocking ought to be a clue that you should. I doubt you are going to have a road to Damascus experience. This may be the only time He sends you a message.
Good luck. Please don't return to your regular programming.
Last edited by Wardendresden; 01-14-2016 at 09:27 PM..
The sin that is a that is a "noun" (nowhere in Scripture is a difference mentioned--you have a man-made construct of Churchianity) would not apply unequally to some people and not others. Therefore you state infants die unsaved in a state of sin. Unless, of course, you have that other man-made construct of "age of accountability."
The OT God had Israelites rejoicing for bashing the brains out of sinful infants whose parents were the enemies of Israel. If you believe that, don't tell us you are innocent of their murders, your heart is just as murderous--and just as guilty.
I guess when Jesus said "Suffer the little children to come to me," it was really a mistranslation. He meant suffocate the little children who DON'T come to me.
Dodge all you like, but that god is no different than dozens of other pagan gods. Perhaps you should close your ears to Churchianity's teaching and read about how those idiotic doctrines came about. Try reading the late French theologian/philosopher Jacque Ellul's book, THE SUBVERSION OF CHRISTIANTY. Right now you are a victim of the subversion with those ideas. But it doesn't have to remain that way. Read books with opposing ideas and test them. Your heart knows better than to swallow wholesale the espousal of ideas from a paid clergy. They have a vested interest in keeping you ignorant, unthinking, and passing off as the "will of God" ideas that don't make sense to any person of reasonably human morality. They even criticize human morality so that they can substitute their own.
Right now it appears you have swallowed it hook, line, and sinker. I know, I used to preach (literally) that garbage until God told me to ask myself if it made any sense at all. It didn't, it doesn't.
But if you won't tread those murky, scary waters of being outside the group think, you'll die in your own sins---not one of which was originally from Adam. They are all yours by choice. Ignorance is not a sin unless you know other ideas exist and need to be explored but refuse to do so.
You know now. Since Ellul may be a bit of a tough read,start as a babe and read Michael Camp's CONFESSIONS OF A BIBLE THUMPER, another fundamentalist (and former African missionary) who found freedom in Jesus Christ to think for himself. Read again Hosea 4:6 and apply it to yourself. Have you considered that it might be you who is rejecting knowledge God wants you to have? And you appear new to CD, so perhaps God did not bring you to this forum to share or reinforce what you already believe, but to open your heart to new knowledges? You will never know without launching that ship into unknown waters. Ask your pastor if you should. His/her discouragement or mocking ought to be a clue that you should. I doubt you are going to have a road to Damascus experience. This may be the only time He sends you a message.
Good luck. Please don't return to your regular programming.
I must be missing something. Was it something Livelystone said/wrote? I mean, I know people paint a picture, and from that other folks tend to extemporise, infer and imply, (I.e. Interpret) and build a bigger picture than the one that was detailed, but there's quite a bit more than fair interpretation to your judgement here....?
We 'have' sin. We 'do' sin. There's your noun and verb, right there. Original sin as far as I am aware is this - we all die physically, even babies - that's a law, and a seed. We are all dead spiritually until renewed by Christ - that's a law and a seed (....I nearly wrote lawn and seed!). No one technically sinned until the law was given (but they all died) - same with babies - they don't technically sin until they are told 'no, don't do that' - issue is that they/we have a propensity (law/seed) to want our own way. That is 'original sin' in a nutshell.
While I'm on this. My view is that doctrines need a 'fuzzy edge' around them, because they can very quickly become hard orthodoxy, which means they never get re-examined.
So it is with 'sins of the Fathers'. It is better to think of it as spiritual law, than doctrine or orthodoxy. I prefer to view and 'language' it as generational sins. It's worth reading up on that subject - they definitely are real. I've also found that Ancestral Generational Dissociation is real - broken soul fragments from previous ancestors that get passed down to us.
While I'm on this. My view is that doctrines need a 'fuzzy edge' around them, because they can very quickly become hard orthodoxy, which means they never get re-examined.
So it is with 'sins of the Fathers'. It is better to think of it as spiritual law, than doctrine or orthodoxy. I prefer to view and 'language' it as generational sins. It's worth reading up on that subject - they definitely are real. I've also found that Ancestral Generational Dissociation is real - broken soul fragments from previous ancestors that get passed down to us.
Read post 388 and the quote above that I responded to.
"Spiritual" law is the Christian equivalent of Jewish law--used to justify oneself about beliefs and sometimes actions. While nominal Christians are fond of excusing their own sin with "the devil made me do it," they are equally fond at condemning what they view as the sin of others by defending that condemnation with "God said it" (meaning not me).
Sin is always that of an individual human making a poor choice--a selfish choice that does not involve "loving others more than self."
Jesus was the Servant of men. Walking in His footsteps requires the same servant attitude.
I'm not a great fan of Paul because he is too easily misunderstood. Invariably evangelicals use the words of Paul to condemn others.
To understand Scripture, particularly Paul. It must be gulped like beer, not sipped like wine. For the most part, Evangelicals are wine-sippers.
While we're on it, what spiritual law justifies bashing the brains out of the infants of one's enemies? The Israelites felt justified by God in so doing.
Read post 388 and the quote above that I responded to.
"Spiritual" law is the Christian equivalent of Jewish law--used to justify oneself about beliefs and sometimes actions. While nominal Christians are fond of excusing their own sin with "the devil made me do it," they are equally fond at condemning what they view as the sin of others by defending that condemnation with "God said it" (meaning not me).
Sin is always that of an individual human making a poor choice--a selfish choice that does not involve "loving others more than self."
Jesus was the Servant of men. Walking in His footsteps requires the same servant attitude.
I'm not a great fan of Paul because he is too easily misunderstood. Invariably evangelicals use the words of Paul to condemn others.
To understand Scripture, particularly Paul. It must be gulped like beer, not sipped like wine. For the most part, Evangelicals are wine-sippers.
While we're on it, what spiritual law justifies bashing the brains out of the infants of one's enemies? The Israelites felt justified by God in so doing.
Ok, read post 388, again. ...wow, this is fun.
You're still missing the point that you and all the love crowd keep missing. That our primitive, barbaric, goat herding ancestors didn't know how to live nicely and get along with their neighbours like good chaps. So because you can't accept they lived like that and God couldn't have told them to do certain things, it is dismissed as not being what God wanted them to do. And we would have been exactly the same, so I'm not excusing it. People in general have moved on quite a lot in only 6000 years, apart from in the area of abortion.
Now, if you'll read my post 395, I'll answer your question: the spiritual law is 'the wages of sin is death'. You may not like it - I can't imagine there is anyone alive that likes it, but it is what it is. God decides how and when we die, as shown with what happened to the Canaanites.
Now, here's another truth. You have to able to hold all these things in your spirit and mind at the same time (just like with Jesus who appeared to be contradicting the sins of the Fathers law). As F Scott Fitzgerald said, "the test of a first rate intelligence is the ability to hold two opposing thoughts in mind at the same time and still retain the ability to function". Because God's foolishness is greater than mans wisdom, this certainly applies to spiritual things.
Last edited by Age-enduring; 01-15-2016 at 10:55 AM..
You're still missing the point that you and all the love crowd keep missing. That our primitive, barbaric, goat herding ancestors didn't know how to live nicely and get along with their neighbours like good chaps. So because you can't accept they lived like that and God couldn't have told them to do certain things, it is dismissed as not being what God wanted them to do. And we would have been exactly the same, so I'm not excusing it. People in general have moved on quite a lot in only 6000 years, apart from in the area of abortion.
Now, if you'll read my post 395, I'll answer your question: the spiritual law is 'the wages of sin is death'. You may not like it - I can't imagine there is anyone alive that likes it, but it is what it is. God decides how and when we die, as shown with what happened to the Canaanites.
Now, here's another truth. You have to able to hold all these things in your spirit and mind at the same time (just like with Jesus who appeared to be contradicting the sins of the Fathers law). As F Scott Fitzgerald said, "the test of a first rate intelligence is the ability to hold two opposing thoughts in mind at the same time and still retain the ability to function". Because God's foolishness is greater than mans wisdom, this certainly applies to spiritual things.
Jesus didn't "appear" to contradict the Scripture. He flat out told the Pharisees they didn't get it. He's flat out telling fundamentalists they STILL don't get it. Law for them is greater than the Spirit of Christ.
By insisting Christians believe in the inerrancy and unlimited authority of the Bible, teachers can use the Bible, consciously or unconsciously, to try to control people’s lives. Since it is "God’s Word," if you don’t obey it, you are rebelling against God, the reasoning goes. This teaching prevents people from interpreting the nature of God’s revelation for themselves and coming to their own conclusions.
Fundamentalists equate God's Word with Scripture. Scripture equates God's Word with Jesus. The Pharisees already had a Bible and misunderstood it. So God sent His final Word in the form of Jesus.
All four of the canonical gospels AND the Gospel of Thomas tell the same story about a master sending his servants one by one to check up on his vineyard:
"But last of all he sent unto them his son, saying, They will reverence my son. But when the husbandmen saw the son, they said among themselves, This is the heir; come, let us kill him, and let us seize on his inheritance. And they caught him, and cast him out of the vineyard, and slew him."
God sent Scripture and prophets, and at last His Son. All were killed by people who were the most religious of the religious. They didn't get the true Word, they thought it was in a rulebook. That is fundamentalism in a nutshell. They claim something for the Bible that it doesn't claim for itself. Fundamentalists are arrogant in that they believe they've found the truth. Truth-seekers are doubters--mostly about themselves and their Scriptural understanding.
In just the last couple of years I've come to understand the Trinity as a church made concept. While I still cling to it, I no longer see it as a "requirement" for salvation. Now I'm beginning to see that perhaps there are many paths to God. Why would God confine Himself to one path for salvation?
Fundamentalism is about controlling people. Voice disagreement about some part of a fundamentalist doctrine and immediately you are pressured to "return to God." If you don't respond quickly you are socially ostracized.
Often they predict horrible consequences from God (who loves the chief of sinners). They emphasize end-times for no prayer in schools, homosexual marriage, women pastoring churches. As Steve Dennie once said, "Those who don't learn from the past are doomed to write end-times books.
No you don't have to hold things both in your spirit and in your mind. You have to have a mind that won't shut off your intellect thereby preventing the spirit from working in the depths of your soul.
Many a fundamentalist clings to "literalism" of Scripture, shutting off their intellect and narrowing God to Scripture only. That was the sin of the Pharisees. In the apocryphal story of the woman caught in adultery (my favorite story not found in the earliest manuscripts of John) the Pharisees were correct with their literal interpretation of death by stoning. Jesus did not have a truly scriptural view. He knew that when scripture becomes a weapon against people, it is not from God.
The fruit of Bible abuse is abundant. In his book CONFESSIONS OF A BIBLE THUMPER, Michael Camp reports:
“The pervasiveness of bad theology influenced Christian psychologists Henry Cloud and John Townsend to write books like Twelve “Christian” Beliefs That Can Drive You Crazy. “Time and time again, we’d find that our patients—sincere, Bible-loving believers struggling with emotional issues—had a double burden to bear. Not only were they depressed… but they were handicapped by certain teachings that sounded Christian but weren’t. The ideas appeared true because those who taught them used religious language and quoted Scriptures. These ideas, however, are emotional heresies.”
Excerpt From: Camp, Michael. “Confessions of a Bible Thumper.” Cedar Forge Press. iBooks.
Fundamentalism enslaves people. It is a product of Churchianity. People in Christ are free to understand Scripture as God gives them the light to understand it. I compare the Bible to a gigantic picture window. From the perspective of someone looking through the right side of the window there are trees and hills. From the perspective of someone looking through the left side of the window there is a pond and a field of flowers. Neither view is incorrect. It is when those on the right or left begin looking at the window (the Bible) and either over emphasizing the cracks and stains on the window, or trying to "fix" them that we lose perspective. From my standpoint on the left the cracks aren't important unless someone claims there aren't any. Those on the right are compelled to keep polishing the window (creative, unbiblical stories) to make it appear perfect. Both of us fall into the trap of not seeing through that window into the heart of God---for God IS His word, not the Bible--that is but a window. Posters like Thrillobyte and Freak80 are just as set on emphasizing those cracks to avoid looking through the window. Posters like Eusebius, Mike555, and FinnJarber are into "cleaning up" the window or denying there are any cracks.
For me I am free to read the Psalm about rejoicing by those who bash the heads of infants on the rocks as part of the cracks, not the heart of God. I ignore the verse because the Spirit in me says it was never the intention of God to justify murder, it was the spirit in men who wanted to justify their own murderous deeds. But for the fundamentalist he must invent an unbiblical story that "explains" why that was okay then but not now. So his bible expands and becomes completely uncanonical through his own revisions. They become "selective" literalists. There is not a true literalist of the bible anywhere on earth. In fact selective biblical literalists resemble selective Quran literalists.
It is a conundrum as old as any holy writings. Fundamentalists, selective literalists, are enslaved by their holy scriptures. They have no freedom of Spirit to see scripture as Jesus saw it--used for the benefit of all God's creations, not just a select few.
Last edited by Wardendresden; 01-15-2016 at 12:19 PM..
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