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The beast and the false prophet are human beings who will be enpowered by Satan. And the fact that the beast and the false prophet are shown to still be alive in the lake of fire after having been there for a thousand years obviously means that they will not have not been annihilated. Therefore, in the case of those who are in the lake of fire, the word apollumi does not refer to being annihilated, but rather refers to being in a lost state of ruination.
As for those mentioned in Revelation 14:9-11, of course it refers to those in the Tribulation. But they are still human beings, and those who take the mark of the beast will be tormented, and they will have no rest, but the smoke of their torment will go up forever and ever, thus refuting the idea of annihilation.
Also, as has been pointed out, the Bible speaks of decrees of punishment in the day of judgment and annihilation would not allow for 'degrees of punishment.' And so again, the idea of annihilation is refuted.
Quote:
Originally Posted by thrillobyte
No, no---they will be possessed by the spirit of satan. They actually will become like satan in the same way Jesus was imbued with power by the Holy Spirit. That makes them supernatural.
Whether you want to refer to it as being empowered by Satan, or possessed by the spirit of Satan, the beast and the false prophet are still human. Judas Iscariot was possessed by Satan, but he was still a human being.
But actually, since Satan is a creature, he can only be in one place at a time. That means that he cannot indwell two people at the same time.
Using the Bible, show us where they a human. As I showed in the book of Daniel, the two horned goat was killed but all the people that the the two horned goat represented didn't die. Their government did in that it was conquered. The goats were not human. Why would I think the Beast is or the false prophet?
The issue is not really difficult to understand. I hold to the theological position of the angelic conflict. Basically, God created man for at least two reasons. One was to bring many sons into glory. But the other reason was to resolve the spiritual warfare of the angelic conflict. Before man was ever created, the angel we know by what are now his titles, 'Satan' and the 'devil,' made a volitional decision to rebel against God. He was then sentenced to eternal separation from God in the lake of fire. But that sentence will not be carried out until the end of the Millennium. In the meantime the angelic conflict in which the forces of Satan are in opposition to God, rages throughout human history. The reason why Satan was not immediately sent into the lake of fire is probably because he objected to the sentence. We are told in the Bible (1 Peter 1:12) that the angels are intently looking into the affairs of men and have an intense interest in the salvation of men. All of human history then, this side of the eternal state, lies between the fall and sentencing of Satan, and the carrying out of that sentence. Since Satan's volition was involved in his fall, it follows that human volition is the basic issue in resolving the angelic conflict. Satan apparently claimed that his punishment was unfair. God chose to show Satan and all of creation that he (Satan) had no excuse for his rebellion by creating a lower creation (man) and giving him the same volition that the angels had. The point being that if a lesser creation (man) could choose for God, then the angels who rebelled had no excuse for their rebellion. A person's time on this earth therefore is a probationary time in which a person has to choose for or against God. A person who dies without having chosen for God will experience the same punishment as Satan and the fallen angels.
God has revealed Himself to man in a general sense, in which He is known by His creation. Romans 1:18-20 states that creation itself is evidence that God exists and that therefore those who reject God are without excuse. When an individual reaches a point (at whatever age he is) where he comes to realize that there must be a creator (God-consciousness), he becomes accountable to God for his response or reaction to that realization. If at that point he wants to know more about God, then God will see to it that he has the opportunity to hear the gospel message before he dies so that he can ether accept or reject the gospel message about Jesus. Since God controls human history in favor of positive volition, and since geographical isolation is not a problem for God, anyone, at anytime in human history, always has the opportunity to hear the gospel if he is positive at the point of God consciousness. Being positive at the point of God-consciousness does not of course mean that a person will accept the gospel message about Christ. But he is given the opportunity to make that choice.
From the very beginning, following man's fall, God had promised that a deliverer would come into the world. And so at any time in human history before Jesus came into the world to go to the cross, salvation was by believing the promise of the coming of the deliverer.
In summary then, man faces an issue during his time on this earth. That issue being whether he will respond first to the general revelation of God, and then to the gospel message concerning Jesus, or whether he will suppress the knowledge of God of which creation speaks. Each individual must make a volitional decision. If his decision is against God, and against the gospel message, then he will share the same punishment as Satan and the fallen angels (Matthew 25:41; Revelation 20:10-15).
If you're interested, you can look at the following concerning the angelic conflict.
I'm mostly aware of how you view spiritual warfare and I share some similar views, but this really doesn't answer my questions...infact, not only does your perception not really reflect the reality humanity's current scientific and mental state (which God would have had to have known would happen) and then essentially claims anyone who chooses to be a non-believer for scientific or cultural reasons is such an idiot they deserve to be eternally torment, but it also really puts some serious limitations on how God can impact eternity. It makes him seem eternally grudging to a level so terrifyingly angry it sounds more like something only Satan would be capable of...
I mean If you want to claim that God isn't angry as he sends people to hell and its "Just how it works," it doesn't address why he would set up such an extreme system to begin with in choosing the same eternal torment system for us comparatively stupid humans with extremely diverse backgrounds as he did for his divinely intelligent angelic beings. If you also want to claim that because we have supposedly immortal souls, God had no choice but to put the non-believers in the same pit as the demons, that puts serious limits on his omnificence...see the problem? Under your system, Its just simply inescapable that either God didn't plan very well or he is deliberately created this system knowing full well that most of his bewildering humans would suffer in some way eternally without any alternative plan that maybe goes beyond comparatively laughable 12 to 120 years they had to "decide"
Last edited by Jrhockney; 06-08-2016 at 06:30 PM..
Half the translations make belief in Jesus a criteria for eternal life, while the other half make obedience the criteria for eternal life. That's problem No 1.
According to the literal interpretation of this verse those who don't receive salvation by whatever means suffer annihilation and God's wrath remains on their memory even after they are annihilated. ("the wrath of God abideth on him")
But the larger problem is that those who don't either believe in Jesus or obey him (depending on which translation you grow up with) do not inherit eternal spiritual life. That means they inherit eternal spiritual death according to how the Holy Spirit dictated the words to whoever wrote this contradicting passage. The passage then, specifically states that God will annihilate those who don't obey Jesus, or who don't believe in Jesus, take your pick.
Proof positive it's not universal redemption or eternal torment for unrepentant sinners but complete and total annihilation.
Hey thrillobyte, I really have to ask...what are you these days?! LOL. Remembering back to your older posts, I've thought you might be everything from a fundamentalist, to URist, to Liberal Christian, to a skeptical agnostic and now it sounds like you're an annhilationist...are you really on what appears to be a spiritual rollercoaster or are you just messing with us?
Whether you want to refer to it as being empowered by Satan, or possessed by the spirit of Satan, the beast and the false prophet are still human. Judas Iscariot was possessed by Satan, but he was still a human being.
But actually, since Satan is a creature, he can only be in one place at a time. That means that he cannot indwell two people at the same time.
Quote:
Originally Posted by 2Timothy316
Using the Bible, show us where they a human. As I showed in the book of Daniel, the two horned goat was killed but all the people that the the two horned goat represented didn't die. Their government did in that it was conquered. The goats were not human. Why would I think the Beast is or the false prophet?
In the Bible kingdoms are represented by their kings. The imagery of the term 'beast' is applied both to kingdoms and to the kings of the kingdoms. This is seen by looking at both Daniel 7:17 and Daniel 7:23.
In Daniel 7:23 it is said that the forth beast will be a forth kingdom. However, in Daniel 7:17 it is said that these great beasts which are four in number are four kings who will arise from the earth.
Kingdoms have kings or leaders. The 'beast' terminology refers to both the king and his kingdom. In Daniel 9:26 this leader is referred to as the prince who is to come. The verse refers to Jerusalem and the temple which will be destroyed by the people of ''the prince who is to come''. The temple and Jerusalem was destroyed in A.D. 70 by the Roman legions of Titus. This means that the prince who is to come will have a Roman origin. He is referred to by Paul in 2 Thessalonians 2:3-9 as the man of lawlessness, the son of destruction whose coming is in accord with the activity of Satan, with all power and signs and false wonders. The beast in Revelation then is the king of the revived Roman empire.
This man of lawlessness, this beast, who is the prince who is to come, will seat himself in the temple (2 Thessalonians 2:4) at the midway point of the Tribulation. This is the abomination of desolation of which Daniel spoke in Daniel 9:27 and to which Jesus referred in Matthew 24:15.
Along with the false prophet, he will be cast into the lake of fire when Jesus returns. And far from being annihilated, he will still be alive and conscious after a thousand years have past.
The issue is not really difficult to understand. I hold to the theological position of the angelic conflict. Basically, God created man for at least two reasons. One was to bring many sons into glory. But the other reason was to resolve the spiritual warfare of the angelic conflict. Before man was ever created, the angel we know by what are now his titles, 'Satan' and the 'devil,' made a volitional decision to rebel against God. He was then sentenced to eternal separation from God in the lake of fire. But that sentence will not be carried out until the end of the Millennium. In the meantime the angelic conflict in which the forces of Satan are in opposition to God, rages throughout human history. The reason why Satan was not immediately sent into the lake of fire is probably because he objected to the sentence. We are told in the Bible (1 Peter 1:12) that the angels are intently looking into the affairs of men and have an intense interest in the salvation of men. All of human history then, this side of the eternal state, lies between the fall and sentencing of Satan, and the carrying out of that sentence. Since Satan's volition was involved in his fall, it follows that human volition is the basic issue in resolving the angelic conflict. Satan apparently claimed that his punishment was unfair. God chose to show Satan and all of creation that he (Satan) had no excuse for his rebellion by creating a lower creation (man) and giving him the same volition that the angels had. The point being that if a lesser creation (man) could choose for God, then the angels who rebelled had no excuse for their rebellion. A person's time on this earth therefore is a probationary time in which a person has to choose for or against God. A person who dies without having chosen for God will experience the same punishment as Satan and the fallen angels.
God has revealed Himself to man in a general sense, in which He is known by His creation. Romans 1:18-20 states that creation itself is evidence that God exists and that therefore those who reject God are without excuse. When an individual reaches a point (at whatever age he is) where he comes to realize that there must be a creator (God-consciousness), he becomes accountable to God for his response or reaction to that realization. If at that point he wants to know more about God, then God will see to it that he has the opportunity to hear the gospel message before he dies so that he can ether accept or reject the gospel message about Jesus. Since God controls human history in favor of positive volition, and since geographical isolation is not a problem for God, anyone, at anytime in human history, always has the opportunity to hear the gospel if he is positive at the point of God consciousness. Being positive at the point of God-consciousness does not of course mean that a person will accept the gospel message about Christ. But he is given the opportunity to make that choice.
From the very beginning, following man's fall, God had promised that a deliverer would come into the world. And so at any time in human history before Jesus came into the world to go to the cross, salvation was by believing the promise of the coming of the deliverer.
In summary then, man faces an issue during his time on this earth. That issue being whether he will respond first to the general revelation of God, and then to the gospel message concerning Jesus, or whether he will suppress the knowledge of God of which creation speaks. Each individual must make a volitional decision. If his decision is against God, and against the gospel message, then he will share the same punishment as Satan and the fallen angels (Matthew 25:41; Revelation 20:10-15).
If you're interested, you can look at the following concerning the angelic conflict.
I'm mostly aware of how you view spiritual warfare and I share some similar views, but this really doesn't answer my questions...infact, not only does your perception not really reflect the reality humanity's current scientific and mental state (which God would have had to have known would happen) and then essentially claims anyone who chooses to be a non-believer for scientific or cultural reasons is such an idiot they deserve to be eternally torment, but it also really puts some serious limitations on how God can impact eternity. It makes him seem eternally grudging to a level so terrifyingly angry it sounds more like something only Satan would be capable of...
I mean If you want to claim that God isn't angry as he sends people to hell and its "Just how it works," it doesn't address why he would set up such an extreme system to begin with in choosing the same eternal torment system for us comparatively stupid humans with extremely diverse backgrounds as he did for his divinely intelligent angelic beings. If you also want to claim that because we have supposedly immortal souls, God had no choice but to put the non-believers in the same pit as the demons, that puts serious limits on his omnificence...see the problem? Under your system, Its just simply inescapable that either God didn't plan very well or he is deliberately created this system knowing full well that most of his bewildering humans would suffer in some way eternally without any alternative plan that maybe goes beyond comparatively laughable 12 to 120 years they had to "decide"
It's hardly ''my system.'' I didn't write the Bible. First, let's forget the 'grudging, terrifyingly angry' picture of God. The Bible uses anthropomorphic language in which God is described in human terms and with human characteristics which He doesn't really have in order to make His attributes and policies somewhat comprehensible to the finite human mind. God is absolute righteousness and justice, and the execution of His justice in carrying out the demands of His righteousness is referred to as His wrath. God doesn't actually have the human emotion of anger, nor does He hate. But being absolute holiness, God must punish sin and evil.
The only way to explain why God chose to set up His plan the way He did is that in His wisdom and foreknowledge and omniscience He determined that this was the best way to accomplish His purpose, which as I said, is both to bring many sons into glory while at the same time resolving the angelic conflict. In giving both angels and man volition, He knew exactly how it would all play out. And in order for volition to be a reality God had to let it function. Of course there are times when God has to step in and overrule the decisions of men in order to preserve the human race and keep it from destroying itself, but aside from that, God allows volition to function.
Regardless of what anyone may think about why God does things the way that He does, and regardless of not being able to understand why He does things the way that He does, it must be remembered that He is Sovereign and He has the right to do things His way, and that His way is in accordance with His perfect righteousness, His perfect wisdom, and His perfect love.
Where is it said that God's Holiness requires punishment, Mike???
What is said is that God does punish the wicked. Therefore it follows that His holiness requires it. He doesn't punish because He likes to punish.
Isa. 13:11 Thus I will punish the world for its evil And the wicked for their iniquity; I will also put an end to the arrogance of the proud And abase the haughtiness of the ruthless.
Isa. 24:21 So it will happen in that day, That the LORD will punish the host of heaven on high, And the kings of the earth on earth.
Proverbs 11:21 Assuredly, the evil man will not go unpunished, But the descendants of the righteous will be delivered.
Luke 12:47 "And that slave who knew his master's will and did not get ready or act in accord with his will, will receive many lashes, 48] but the one who did not know it, and committed deeds worthy of a flogging, will receive but few. From everyone who has been given much, much will be required; and to whom they entrusted much, of him they will ask all the more.
Revelation 14:9 Then another angel, a third one, followed them, saying with a loud voice, "If anyone worships the beast and his image, and receives a mark on his forehead or on his hand, 10] he also will drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is mixed in full strength in the cup of His anger; and he will be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels and in the presence of the Lamb.
Where is it said that God's Holiness requires punishment, Mike???
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike555
What is said is that God does punish the wicked. Therefore it follows that His holiness requires it. He doesn't punish because He likes to punish.
So just more inference in the "precepts and doctrines of men" then. I thought it was something like that. BTW, you are incorrect. It does NOT follow that God's holiness requires punishment. It is a non-sequitur.
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So just more inference in the "precepts and doctrines of men" then. I thought it was something like that. BTW, you are incorrect. It does NOT follow that God's holiness requires punishment. It is a non-sequitur.
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Yes, it does follow. When God punishes, it's because He has to. Not because He wants to. But this tired old script that you constantly read from, post after post, year after year, about 'precepts and doctrines of men' which you yourself are up to your neck in with your own ridiculous precepts, and rants about ignorant savages, etc., is a bore. And so are you. We're done.
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LOL. Remembering back to your older posts, I've thought you might be everything from a fundamentalist, to URist, to Liberal Christian, to a skeptical agnostic and now it sounds like you're an annhilationist...are you really on what appears to be a spiritual rollercoaster or are you just messing with us? 
