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And it's already been shown to you several times by Timothy that apollumi can be used to mean more than just ruination or "to lose the use of". I will state what Tim said again. These are uses of apollumi straight from the Bible that clearly mean "total cessation of life":
In Matthew 2:13, Herod wants to kill the baby Jesus.
In Matthew 12:14 the Pharisees conspired together about how they might kill Jesus.
In Matthew 21:41 (story of the wicked tenants) the vineyard owner kills the wicked tenants.
In Matthew 27:20, the elders and chief priests urge the people to have Barabbas released and Jesus killed.
In Mark 9:22, the parents of a boy with an unclean spirit tell Jesus that the spirit often throws the boy into water or into a fire, trying to kill him.
In Luke 6:9, Jesus asks if it is lawful on the Sabbath to save life or kill.
Why do you refuse to even acknowledge they exist and just keep focusing on this single application of the word when there are clearly many more than just "ruin"?????
As for the beast and the false prophet you keep saying will burn forever, they are supernatural creatures not humans. If they burn forever by God's decree that has nothing to do with humans burning forever, and in fact Revelation NEVER says all who don't accept Jesus will burn forever. It clearly states: WHOEVER receives the mark of the beast.....will drink of the wrath of God....and the smoke of his torment ascends forever...." so this verse applies ONLY to those in the Tribulation, it does NOT refer to everyone who had a chance to accept Jesus and refused him. In fact, nowhere in the Bible can you show that Jesus specifically states If you don't believe in me you will burn eternally in torment in hell. NOWHERE! Anytime Jesus referred to burning in hell it was for not doing good deeds, not believing in him. The only time in John he says "If you don't believe in me" he follows with "you will perish".
And then we're back to "is that eternal ruin" or is it "total destruction"? This whole thing is circular.
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The beast and the false prophet are human beings who will be enpowered by Satan. And the fact that the beast and the false prophet are shown to still be alive in the lake of fire after having been there for a thousand years obviously means that they will not have not been annihilated. Therefore, in the case of those who are in the lake of fire, the word apollumi does not refer to being annihilated, but rather refers to being in a lost state of ruination.
As for those mentioned in Revelation 14:9-11, of course it refers to those in the Tribulation. But they are still human beings, and those who take the mark of the beast will be tormented, and they will have no rest, but the smoke of their torment will go up forever and ever, thus refuting the idea of annihilation.
Also, as has been pointed out, the Bible speaks of decrees of punishment in the day of judgment and annihilation would not allow for 'degrees of punishment.' And so again, the idea of annihilation is refuted.
As for the beast and the false prophet you keep saying will burn forever, they are supernatural creatures not humans.
I guess it's time, using the Bible to explain what the Beast is so that people will know that they are not actual things or even a group of people. To understand that along with the Lake of Fire they are all symbolic. To figure out they are symbolic we don't look to ourselves to explain what they are. We use the Bible and what we know from physical history. We use these because it's the only thing that we can really trust.
Animals used to represent a nation is not just found in the the book of Revelation. Daniel 8:20, 21 says that a Two Horned Ram stood for Media and Persia. Note one animal stood for one two nations because the two horns to represented two kings. They were allies and why only one animal. The archeological historical record confirms that they were allies. The hair male goat stood for Greece and it's one horn stood for one king.
So the Bible (not anyone else) has established that animals in prophecy represent earthly governments. It is clear that in the account of Daniel chapter 8 there were no actual goats. They were symbolic. The only part of the animal that was represented as one person were the horns that represented a person of power. Even then the kings are not named. When the one horned goat trample down the two horned goat in verse 7, this signified the end of Medo-Persain government. However, this didn't mean that all the people ruled by that government were slaughtered. We certainly would have heard about hundreds of thousands of people dying in history class. It was a symbolic slaying of a those nations' rulership.
Same thing with the Beast in Revelation. It's a representation of the power or governments and rulers. It has 7 heads, 10 horns and one body made up of all sorts of animals. This would mean many rulers, many governments but all allies being part of one body. Like the goat with two horns that was struck down, when the Beast in Revelation is struck down and brought to nothing the people the beast ruled over will still be alive. But such a government with many nations and many rulers will never again return. Such a power will be in the Lake of Fire.
There is much more to all of this but I'm trying to keep this post simple and to the point.
Goats = Symbolic
Horns = Symbolic
The Beast = Symbolic
Lake of Fire = Symbolic.
You can't put symbolic things into an actual fire. The fire must be symbolic.
Last edited by 2Timothy316; 06-08-2016 at 11:50 AM..
The beast and the false prophet are human beings who will be enpowered by Satan. And the fact that the beast and the false prophet are shown to still be alive in the lake of fire after having been there for a thousand years obviously means that they will not have not been annihilated. Therefore, in the case of those who are in the lake of fire, the word apollumi does not refer to being annihilated, but rather refers to being in a lost state of ruination.
As for those mentioned in Revelation 14:9-11, of course it refers to those in the Tribulation. But they are still human beings, and those who take the mark of the beast will be tormented, and they will have no rest, but the smoke of their torment will go up forever and ever, thus refuting the idea of annihilation.
Also, as has been pointed out, the Bible speaks of decrees of punishment in the day of judgment and annihilation would not allow for 'degrees of punishment.' And so again, the idea of annihilation is refuted.
No you're showing your confusion about symbolic terms. Let me help you.
Revelation 14:9-11 "Another angel, a third, followed them, saying in a loud voice: “If anyone worships the wild beast and its image and receives a mark on his forehead or on his hand (symbolic, there is no actual mark on heads or hands), he will also drink of the wine of the anger of God that is poured out undiluted into the cup of His wrath, (symbolic, no one will actually be drinking from a cup and there is no 'anger wine'.) and he will be tormented with fire and sulfur (symbolic, of the 2nd death compare Rev 21:8) in the sight of the holy angels and in the sight of the Lamb (symbolic, there is no actual lamb). And the smoke of their torment ascends forever and ever, (symbolic, in Isaiah 34:10 it says of the kingdom of Edom, that smoke would rise from her forever. There is no actual fire south of Israel today.) and day and night they have no rest, those who worship the wild beast and its image and whoever receives the mark of its name."
Last edited by 2Timothy316; 06-08-2016 at 12:26 PM..
The fact that the beast and the false profit are still alive in the lake of fire even after a thousand years and that they will continue to be alive even after a thousand years shows that they will not have been annihilated. They and everyone else in the lake of fire will be there in their resurrected bodies. They won't be disembodied spirits.
And they will not be there because of sin (what you referred to as a mistake). Jesus already paid the penalty for their sins. They will be there because in rejecting Christ as their Savior they by default will have depended on their own imperfect righteousness which God simply cannot accept. Because they don't have the righteousness of Jesus imputed to them they do not qualify to have an eternal relationship with God.
So they qualify for eternal isolation and/or torment just because they didn't see a good reason to believe in Jesus above all other possible faiths (many of which they were born into because they were lucky like most of us) within their 12ish (assuming you believe in an age of accountability) to 120 years on earth? Yeah that doesn't really make any logical sense to me either without much better explanation of how and when Jesus is feeling rejected due largely to their personal life circumstances and God given mind for faith and how and why God lets them continue to exist for eternity in some miserable state after they learn the truth.
What really is the deal with the eternal state and decision making abilities of these non-believers? Do they suddenly become robots hating Jesus forever and locking the gates to heaven from the outside even after they learn the truth or does God just lock the gates to heaven saying every million years or so: "sorry, I still haven't gotten over that whole 'you not believing in my Son' for that 12 to 120 years you were on the planet a few billion years ago"?
What about the people in heaven who's loved ones aren't their for all eternity? Do they just have to cope with their loved ones forever miserable or are they "blissfully unaware" (which sounds like mind control btw)?
While I sure that if you are somehow right about the eternal separation state thing, it won't be that simple as I just made it...but it sure as heck sounds like it
Last edited by Jrhockney; 06-08-2016 at 12:38 PM..
Reason: Grammer and spelling
So they qualify for eternal isolation and/or torment just because they didn't see a good reason to believe in Jesus above all other possible faiths (many of which they were born into because they were lucky like most of us) within their 12ish (assuming you believe in an age of accountability) to 120 years on earth? Yeah that doesn't really made any logical sense to me either without much better explanation of how and when Jesus is feeling rejected due largely to their personal life circumstances and God given mind for faith and how and why God lets them continue to exist for eternity in some miserable state after they learn the truth.
And let's not forget that Christ died for all mankind's sins and He ransomed all mankind. Yet, in spite of this, according to some, Jesus turns into the greatest failure the universe has ever seen. Some try to shield God from this colossal failure by vesting mankind with some sort of free-will. Their will is greater than God's in this matter so they trump God's will.
Quote:
What really is the deal with the eternal state and decision making abilities of these non-believers? Do they suddenly become robots hating Jesus forever and locking the gates to heaven from the outside even after they learn the truth or does God just lock the gates to heaven saying every million years or so: "sorry, I still haven't gotten over that whole 'you not believing in my Son' for that 12 to 120 years you were on the planet a few billion years ago"?
Good points.
Quote:
What about the people in heaven who's loved ones aren't their for all eternity? Do they just have to cope with their loved ones forever miserable or are they "blissfully unaware" (which sounds like mind control btw)?
I've heard by those who think they are in the know that God will give them a sort of spiritual lobotomy. As if that solves anything.
Quote:
While I sure that if you are somehow right about the eternal separation state thing, it won't be that simple as I just made it...but it sure as heck sounds like it
The Bible never mentions the word "eternal" with "separation." It is another of a long list of man-made theological noodlings.
No you're showing your confusion about symbolic terms. Let me help you.
Revelation 14:9-11 "Another angel, a third, followed them, saying in a loud voice: “If anyone worships the wild beast and its image and receives a mark on his forehead or on his hand (symbolic, there is no actual mark on heads or hands), he will also drink of the wine of the anger of God that is poured out undiluted into the cup of His wrath, (symbolic, no one will actually be drinking from a cup.) and he will be tormented with fire and sulfur (symbolic, of the 2nd death compare Rev 21:8) in the sight of the holy angels and in the sight of the Lamb (symbolic, there is no actual lamb). And the smoke of their torment ascends forever and ever, (symbolic, in Isaiah 34:10 it says of the kingdom of Edom, that smoke would rise from her forever. There is no actual fire south of Israel today.) and day and night they have no rest, those who worship the wild beast and its image and whoever receives the mark of its name."
Actually, there will indeed be a mark of some kind, either on the forehead or on the hand. Without this mark no one will be allowed to buy or sell. Symbolic language always refers to something which is real. For instance, the Lamb of course refers to Jesus. The cup of His wrath refers to judgment. But the mark is a real mark and whoever takes that mark will be punished. And that punishment is not annihilation.
Concerning the passage in question, John F. Walvoord, the president of Dallas Theological Seminary and Professor Emeritus of Systematic theology writes,
Revelation 14:9-12.A third angel followed with another judgment that worshipers of the beast and his image who receive his mark will be objects of God's wrath and will be destined for eternal torment along with Satan, the demon world, and all unsaved people. The everlasting character of this judgment is stated plainly in verse 11: The smoke of their torment rises forever and ever, and they will have no rest. Those who keep God's commandments and are faithful to Him will need patient endurance (v. 12; cf. 13:10). The doctrine of eternal punishment, though unpopular with liberal scholars and difficult to accept, is nevertheless clearly taught in the Bible. Jesus and the Apostle John say more on this subject than does all the rest of the Bible.
The Bible Knowledge Commentary, New Testament, An Exposition of the Scriptures by Dallas Seminary Faculty, p. 964
Charles C. Ryrie, Professor Emeritus at Dallas Theological Seminary, has this to say concerning Revelation 14: 10-11
Their Punishment; 14:10-11
Their punishment is described in terrible terms that occur elsewhere in the Bible. Its intensity is unmixed---literally, ''he shall drink of the wine of the anger of God mixed undiluted in the cup of His wrath.'' Its agents are ''fire and brimstone,'' or Sulphur. It will be a spectacle ''in the presence of the holy angels'' and ''the Lamb,'' whom these people rejected. Throughout eternity, the Lake of Fire is in the presence of the Lord, for nothing can be outside His omnipresence, even the Lake of Fire. However, the wicked will be separated from His presence in the sense of contact and fellowship (see 2 Thess. 1:9, where a different preposition is used). Its extent is forever (v.11). It's character is continuous (no rest day and night,'' v.11).
Actually, there will indeed be a mark of some kind, either on the forehead or on the hand. Without this mark no one will be allowed to buy or sell. Symbolic language always refers to something which is real. For instance, the Lamb of course refers to Jesus. The cup of His wrath refers to judgment. But the mark is a real mark and whoever takes that mark will be punished. And that punishment is not annihilation.
Concerning the passage in question, John F. Walvoord, the president of Dallas Theological Seminary and Professor Emeritus of Systematic theology writes,
Revelation 14:9-12.A third angel followed with another judgment that worshipers of the beast and his image who receive his mark will be objects of God's wrath and will be destined for eternal torment along with Satan, the demon world, and all unsaved people. The everlasting character of this judgment is stated plainly in verse 11: The smoke of their torment rises forever and ever, and they will have no rest. Those who keep God's commandments and are faithful to Him will need patient endurance (v. 12; cf. 13:10). The doctrine of eternal punishment, though unpopular with liberal scholars and difficult to accept, is nevertheless clearly taught in the Bible. Jesus and the Apostle John say more on this subject than does all the rest of the Bible.
The Bible Knowledge Commentary, New Testament, An Exposition of the Scriptures by Dallas Seminary Faculty, p. 964
Charles C. Ryrie, Professor Emeritus at Dallas Theological Seminary, has this to say concerning Revelation 14: 10-11
Their Punishment; 14:10-11
Their punishment is described in terrible terms that occur elsewhere in the Bible. Its intensity is unmixed---literally, ''he shall drink of the wine of the anger of God mixed undiluted in the cup of His wrath.'' Its agents are ''fire and brimstone,'' or Sulphur. It will be a spectacle ''in the presence of the holy angels'' and ''the Lamb,'' whom these people rejected. Throughout eternity, the Lake of Fire is in the presence of the Lord, for nothing can be outside His omnipresence, even the Lake of Fire. However, the wicked will be separated from His presence in the sense of contact and fellowship (see 2 Thess. 1:9, where a different preposition is used). Its extent is forever (v.11). It's character is continuous (no rest day and night,'' v.11).
Revelation, Charles C. Ryrie, p. 104
Studying other's opinions only, is not true scholarship...
And let's not forget that Christ died for all mankind's sins and He ransomed all mankind. Yet, in spite of this, according to some, Jesus turns into the greatest failure the universe has ever seen. Some try to shield God from this colossal failure by vesting mankind with some sort of free-will. Their will is greater than God's in this matter so they trump God's will.
Good points.
I've heard by those who think they are in the know that God will give them a sort of spiritual lobotomy. As if that solves anything.
The Bible never mentions the word "eternal" with "separation." It is another of a long list of man-made theological noodlings.
For the UR pov: from the long waiting lines to get in to wherever for however long a time while the unbelieving barbaric ancestors Jews like your forefathers getting thrown out of line into Jerusalem's garbage dump , cause while that is going on UR folk will be waiting your turn to bow before Jesus in belief.
Get with it already and stop this dilly dallying.
Last edited by twin.spin; 06-08-2016 at 02:34 PM..
So they qualify for eternal isolation and/or torment just because they didn't see a good reason to believe in Jesus above all other possible faiths (many of which they were born into because they were lucky like most of us) within their 12ish (assuming you believe in an age of accountability) to 120 years on earth? Yeah that doesn't really make any logical sense to me either without much better explanation of how and when Jesus is feeling rejected due largely to their personal life circumstances and God given mind for faith and how and why God lets them continue to exist for eternity in some miserable state after they learn the truth.
What really is the deal with the eternal state and decision making abilities of these non-believers? Do they suddenly become robots hating Jesus forever and locking the gates to heaven from the outside even after they learn the truth or does God just lock the gates to heaven saying every million years or so: "sorry, I still haven't gotten over that whole 'you not believing in my Son' for that 12 to 120 years you were on the planet a few billion years ago"?
What about the people in heaven who's loved ones aren't their for all eternity? Do they just have to cope with their loved ones forever miserable or are they "blissfully unaware" (which sounds like mind control btw)?
While I sure that if you are somehow right about the eternal separation state thing, it won't be that simple as I just made it...but it sure as heck sounds like it
The issue is not really difficult to understand. I hold to the theological position of the angelic conflict. Basically, God created man for at least two reasons. One was to bring many sons into glory. But the other reason was to resolve the spiritual warfare of the angelic conflict. Before man was ever created, the angel we know by what are now his titles, 'Satan' and the 'devil,' made a volitional decision to rebel against God. He was then sentenced to eternal separation from God in the lake of fire. But that sentence will not be carried out until the end of the Millennium. In the meantime the angelic conflict in which the forces of Satan are in opposition to God, rages throughout human history. The reason why Satan was not immediately sent into the lake of fire is probably because he objected to the sentence. We are told in the Bible (1 Peter 1:12) that the angels are intently looking into the affairs of men and have an intense interest in the salvation of men. All of human history then, this side of the eternal state, lies between the fall and sentencing of Satan, and the carrying out of that sentence. Since Satan's volition was involved in his fall, it follows that human volition is the basic issue in resolving the angelic conflict. Satan apparently claimed that his punishment was unfair. God chose to show Satan and all of creation that he (Satan) had no excuse for his rebellion by creating a lower creation (man) and giving him the same volition that the angels had. The point being that if a lesser creation (man) could choose for God, then the angels who rebelled had no excuse for their rebellion. A person's time on this earth therefore is a probationary time in which a person has to choose for or against God. A person who dies without having chosen for God will experience the same punishment as Satan and the fallen angels.
God has revealed Himself to man in a general sense, in which He is known by His creation. Romans 1:18-20 states that creation itself is evidence that God exists and that therefore those who reject God are without excuse. When an individual reaches a point (at whatever age he is) where he comes to realize that there must be a creator (God-consciousness), he becomes accountable to God for his response or reaction to that realization. If at that point he wants to know more about God, then God will see to it that he has the opportunity to hear the gospel message before he dies so that he can ether accept or reject the gospel message about Jesus. Since God controls human history in favor of positive volition, and since geographical isolation is not a problem for God, anyone, at anytime in human history, always has the opportunity to hear the gospel if he is positive at the point of God consciousness. Being positive at the point of God-consciousness does not of course mean that a person will accept the gospel message about Christ. But he is given the opportunity to make that choice.
From the very beginning, following man's fall, God had promised that a deliverer would come into the world. And so at any time in human history before Jesus came into the world to go to the cross, salvation was by believing the promise of the coming of the deliverer.
In summary then, man faces an issue during his time on this earth. That issue being whether he will respond first to the general revelation of God, and then to the gospel message concerning Jesus, or whether he will suppress the knowledge of God of which creation speaks. Each individual must make a volitional decision. If his decision is against God, and against the gospel message, then he will share the same punishment as Satan and the fallen angels (Matthew 25:41; Revelation 20:10-15).
If you're interested, you can look at the following concerning the angelic conflict.
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