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I mean really....after messing with Greek words, why would I expect English to be off limits.
Eternal existence is not eternal life. Eternal life is life in relationship with God. The eternal existence of the unbeliever is existence minus any saving relationship with God. I've already said this. Forget the English dictionaries and learn what the Greek words mean.
Matthew 11:21-24 speaks of degrees of punishment in the day of judgment. If all unbelievers are annihilated that would leave no room for degrees of punishment.
What makes you think that the fire is literal? And why do you assume that the punishment is for God's pleasure? And don't you understand that those who die without receiving Jesus as Savior, and therefore never having been credited with the perfect righteousness of Jesus must remain eternally separated from God?
Eternal life is life in relationship with God. Eternal existence is not eternal life. It is never ending existence outside of a saving relationship with God.
How hard is it to understand that even after a thousand years, it is said of the beast and the false prophet that they are still alive in the lake of fire? That is not annihilation. You simply have to read Revelation 19:20-20:10 to clearly see this.
It is astonishing to me that you believe this way and actually think you worship the true God. Your image of God is marred beyond recognition - kind of like Jesus was marred beyond recognition on the cross.
It is no wonder there is so much anger and hatred and all manner of sin inside the traditional Western churches.
Eternal existence is not eternal life. Eternal life is life in relationship with God. The eternal existence of the unbeliever is existence minus any saving relationship with God. I've already said this. Forget the English dictionaries and learn what the Greek words mean.
"Then I saw another angel flying in midair, and he had the eternal gospel to proclaim to those who live on the earth--to every nation, tribe, language and people." Rev 14:6 (NIV)
The Good News comes in all languages. A person doesn't have to know Greek to learn it. Also, you don't want me to learn Greek. You want me to learn your Greek. But the Bible says that I don't have to do that to learn the Good News contained in the Bible. The Gospel comes in all languages, yes even English. I don't need to forget anything, other than perople's personal interpretations of the Greek language. Therefore this idea of eternal existence and eternal life not being the same has been weighed and rejected seeing that it is a personal belief. I only listen for truth and not personal beliefs. There is only eternal life or eternal death. There isn't a 3rd option.
Last edited by 2Timothy316; 06-08-2016 at 05:15 AM..
You've made this same argument in the past, and it's as invalid now as it was then. Paul did not see beyond John's revelation. And Jesus does not quit reigning. While His Millennial reign will end, and He will indeed hand the kingdom over to the Father, He will continue to co-reign with the Father forever.
Nor did Paul see the second death 'done away.' The reference to death being abolished is to physical death as a result of all being resurrected. But unbelievers will be resurrected to go into the lake of fire which is the second death.
I do not hold to the views of Universalists or to the way in which they interpret the Bible.
Mike,
Here are the reasons I believe Paul saw beyond John's revelation:
1 Corinthians 15:24-26 thereafter the consummation, whenever He may be giving up the kingdom to His God and Father, whenever He should be nullifying all sovereignty and all authority and power." (25) For He must be reigning until He should be placing all His enemies under His feet. (26) The last enemy is being abolished: death.
In Revelation, John does not see Christ quit reigning nor does he see death abolished nor does he see Christ giving up the kingdom as Paul does.
Once God is All in all mankind, there is no longer need for Christ to be reigning. As long as Christ is reigning, He is dealing with insubordination. When God is finally All in all mankind there is no longer insubordination. Christ rules out all rule.
Concerning Christ reigning until, If I say I have to work until I retire in 2016, that means I no longer have a job to go to work. Christ reigns until all enemies are placed under His feet. Once that occurs, He quits reigning. In Revelation Christ is still reigning.
Also, 1 Corinthians 15:22-28 is concerned with vivification of all mankind where Christ is the firstfruit of being the first to be vivified out of death. He didn't enter into death again. Likewise, when death is abolished, all those people are vivified and then God is All in all. Why would God be All in those who, according to you, He sends into the lake of fire? That doesn't make any sense.
I do not hold to the views of Eternal Tormentists or to the way in which they interpret the Bible.
Half the translations make belief in Jesus a criteria for eternal life, while the other half make obedience the criteria for eternal life. That's problem No 1.
According to the literal interpretation of this verse those who don't receive salvation by whatever means suffer annihilation and God's wrath remains on their memory even after they are annihilated. ("the wrath of God abideth on him")
But the larger problem is that those who don't either believe in Jesus or obey him (depending on which translation you grow up with) do not inherit eternal spiritual life. That means they inherit eternal spiritual death according to how the Holy Spirit dictated the words to whoever wrote this contradicting passage. The passage then, specifically states that God will annihilate those who don't obey Jesus, or who don't believe in Jesus, take your pick.
Proof positive it's not universal redemption or eternal torment for unrepentant sinners but complete and total annihilation.
How bout those that don't believe what he said?...
"anyone who believes in God's Son has eternal life" NLT
" The one believing in the Son has eternal life" BLB
"He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life" KJV
All three translations that you listed have a criteria of believing in God's son for eternal life.
The translation I use states "The one who believes in the Son has eternal life..." as well.
The Greek word for a place of the spiritually dead is Hades. Luke 16 references Hades, and about a rich man who had physically died and was now "in agony" (v. 24). The man also asks Abraham to send Lazarus to his father's house to warn his five brothers so that they do not end up in "this place of torment" (v. 27-28).
Mark 9 also speaks of a place that sinner "goes to" (v. 43) or is "thrown into" (v.45, 47). It is a place where "their worm does not die.." (v. 44, 46, 48). Matthew 25 speaks of this place as "eternal punishment" (v. 46)
Annihilation diminishes the power of the cross. It endorses the idea the Christ triumphed over God Himself. It reduces the integrity of the Great Commission, negates justice, and has no solid doctrinal foundation.
Nah it diminishes the power of some churches over their followers. If the threat isn't real then they lose their hold over their followers. Also following 'the cross' is idolatry.
80 years of wrong doing met with billions and billions of years of pain by fire isn't justice. It's an injustice. The law of Jehovah is eye for eye, tooth for tooth and life for a life. Eternal hellfire is not lawful as the punishment doesn't fit any crime according to the law that God Himself follows. Jehovah is no lawbreaker.
Or perhaps it's not what you think is...which is....?
If a person takes a life they certainly are not given eternal life, on fire or otherwise. That would be unlawful. Eternal torture even for taking a life is astronomically unbalanced.
Last edited by 2Timothy316; 06-08-2016 at 07:53 AM..
It's already been shown several times now that the beast and the false prophet will not be annihilated, but will continue to have conscious existence in the lake of fire even after a thousand years have past, and that even after that, they will continue to be tormented forever (Revelation 19:20-20:10).
Add to that the fact that Revelation 14:9-11 states that those who take the mark of the beast will be tormented and that they will have no rest but the smoke of their torment goes up forever and ever, and it is plain to see that the Bible does not teach annihilationism. And so no, the Greek word apollumi used with regard to the unsaved, does not refer to annihilationism.
And it's already been shown to you several times by Timothy that apollumi can be used to mean more than just ruination or "to lose the use of". I will state what Tim said again. These are uses of apollumi straight from the Bible that clearly mean "total cessation of life":
In Matthew 2:13, Herod wants to kill the baby Jesus.
In Matthew 12:14 the Pharisees conspired together about how they might kill Jesus.
In Matthew 21:41 (story of the wicked tenants) the vineyard owner kills the wicked tenants.
In Matthew 27:20, the elders and chief priests urge the people to have Barabbas released and Jesus killed.
In Mark 9:22, the parents of a boy with an unclean spirit tell Jesus that the spirit often throws the boy into water or into a fire, trying to kill him.
In Luke 6:9, Jesus asks if it is lawful on the Sabbath to save life or kill.
Why do you refuse to even acknowledge they exist and just keep focusing on this single application of the word when there are clearly many more than just "ruin"?????
As for the beast and the false prophet you keep saying will burn forever, they are supernatural creatures not humans. If they burn forever by God's decree that has nothing to do with humans burning forever, and in fact Revelation NEVER says all who don't accept Jesus will burn forever. It clearly states: WHOEVER receives the mark of the beast.....will drink of the wrath of God....and the smoke of his torment ascends forever...." so this verse applies ONLY to those in the Tribulation, it does NOT refer to everyone who had a chance to accept Jesus and refused him. In fact, nowhere in the Bible can you show that Jesus specifically states If you don't believe in me you will burn eternally in torment in hell. NOWHERE! Anytime Jesus referred to burning in hell it was for not doing good deeds, not believing in him. The only time in John he says "If you don't believe in me" he follows with "you will perish".
And then we're back to "is that eternal ruin" or is it "total destruction"? This whole thing is circular.
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