The ONE Bible Verse Which DISPROVES Eternal Torment and Proves Annihilation (believe, scriptures)
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You've made this same argument in the past, and it's as invalid now as it was then. Paul did not see beyond John's revelation. And Jesus does not quit reigning. While His Millennial reign will end, and He will indeed hand the kingdom over to the Father, He will continue to co-reign with the Father forever.
Nor did Paul see the second death 'done away.' The reference to death being abolished is to physical death as a result of all being resurrected. But unbelievers will be resurrected to go into the lake of fire which is the second death.
I do not hold to the views of Universalists or to the way in which they interpret the Bible.
You don't believe God can abolish DEATH in all it's forms, biological and spiritual? Just asking.
And yet God was very clear when He said He "will have all mankind to be saved for Christ gave Himself a ransom for all" 1 Tim.2:4-6. Therefore there is no eternal torment and no eternal annihilation. The problem with those two ideas is in the word "aionion" which is an adjective and just tells us of that which pertains to the eon(s). The Bible says all the eons end. Therefore there can be no eternal torment or eternal annihilation.
It is only clear, Eusebius if you have been given the faith of Christ. If not, it will not be clear. Accept that.
No folks, make that three posters that can't get more opposite in their beliefs. 2Timothy316 does not believe like Mike nor me. Go figure that he would be the one to point out a supposed weakness we have that he has!
It's not the beliefs I'm pointing out. It's the interpretation methods. Both of yours are the same. Slightly changing Greek words to make the Bible say something different. What you both are trying to make the Bible say of course is different.
You both have parts that are right. If you'd both read ALL the Bible and leave its words alone you'd see there is no eternal hellfire but there is punishment that can last forever. But alas I know the doctrines you have been taught are strong. So I'll leave you to them.
Psalm 1:3-6 3 And he shall be like a tree planted by the rivers of water, that bringeth forth his fruit in his season; his leaf also shall not wither; and whatsoever he doeth shall prosper. 4 The ungodly are not so: but are like the chaff which the wind driveth away. 5 Therefore the ungodly shall not stand in the judgment, nor sinners in the congregation of the righteous. 6 For the LORD knoweth the way of the righteous: but the way of the ungodly shall perish.
Matthew 18:14 14 Even so it is not the will of your Father which is in heaven, that one of these little ones should perish.
Romans 2:12 12 For as many as have sinned without law shall also perish without law: and as many as have sinned in the law shall be judged by the law;
Acts 8:20 20 But Peter said unto him, Thy money perish with thee, because thou hast thought that the gift of God may be purchased with money.
Here perish means to cease to exist, be destroyed:
3134 avpo,llumi ***. avpole,sw and avpolw/, mid. avpolou/mai; 1aor. avpw,lesa; 2aor. mid. avpwlo,mhn; second perfect avpo,lwla; (1) active ruin, destroy; (a) of persons destroy, kill, bring to ruin (MT 2.13); (b) with an impersonal object destroy, bring to nothing (1C 1.19); (c) of a reward lose, be deprived of (MT 10.42), opposite thre,w (maintain, keep); (2) middle be ruined, be destroyed (second perfect active as middle); (a) of persons die, perish, lose one's life (MT 8.25); (b) of things be lost, be ruined (MT 9.17); (c) of transitory things pass away, cease to exist, perish (1P 1.7)
I believe that post #24 adequately addresses the fact that the Greek word apollumi does not justify the belief in the annihilation of unbelievers. As has already been stated several times, the beast and the false prophet will still be alive and in torment in the lake of fire even after a thousand years.
What you are now doing is engaging in ad hominem attacks by questioning my character and motives.
You can see from scripture itself that the word apollumi refers to things or people which are lost or ruined but which still exist. Even the English word 'destroy' has as one of its synonyms the word 'ruin.' And so to automatically assign to the word apollumi the meaning of annihilation, and failing to take into account the ways it is used in the New Testament, is careless.
I already referenced a few passages in which apollumi is used for things and people who are lost or ruined, but which still exist. I'll mention one of them again and post the verse.
Luke 5:37 "And no one puts new wine into old wineskins; otherwise the new wine will burst the skins and it will be spilled out, and the skins will be ruined. (ἀπολοῦνται; future indicative of ἀπόλλυμι - apollumi.) [or destroyed in some translations]
While the wineskins have been destroyed or ruined, they continue to exist. They simply can no longer fulfill their intended purpose. And so it is with the unbeliever, who having been sentenced to the lake of fire will continue to exist, but will be in a state of ruination. And this can be seen from the fact that the beast and the false prophet will continue to exist in the lake of fire even after a thousand years have passed.
See, you keep adding things to the Bible. Twist after twist.
Do you know where you really went wrong here? You called the Hebrew Scriptures inferior. As if God's Word can ever be less than great. As my username implies I believe ALL SCRIPTURE is inspired of God. Yes even the ones that contradict your doctrine and you can't diminish the Word of God. OT or NT. And yes I take it as a compliment that I cling to any part of the Bible, you honor me that way. I reject all word play to change what the translators translated into destroy not lost in every Bible I have found. I don't trust those interpretation that translate the Bible like the above post. It's the same methods the UR people use.
I don't see Ecc 9:5 as inferior. As if to say Jehovah God was not honest in the Hebrew Scriptures. I reject that as well.
I did not call the Old Testament inferior. I said that there is less revelation in the Old Testament than there is in the New Testament. This can simply demonstrated by the fact that the fact that Paul speaks of the mystery of Christ which in other generations was not made known to the sons of men, as it has now been revealed to His holy apostles and prophets in the Spirit (Ephesians 3:4-5.) What was unknown in past generations has now been made known.
I also referred you to commentators views on Ecc. 9:5 and they don't agree with your view.
You have been shown that your belief in annihilation is not valid. And you have resort to accusing me of 'word play' and of twisting the scriptures. It is impossible to carry on an intelligent conversation with people who do this. Interested readers can read what I've said to you in posts 10, 24, 28, and 34.
Last edited by Michael Way; 06-07-2016 at 02:13 PM..
I did not call the Old Testament inferior. I said that there is less revelation in the Old Testament than there is in the New Testament. This can simply demonstrated by the fact that the fact that Paul speaks of the mystery of Christ which in other generations was not made known to the sons of men, as it has now been revealed to His holy apostles and prophets in the Spirit (Ephesians 3:4-5.) What was unknown in past generations has now been made known.
I also referred you to commentators views on Ecc. 9:5 and they don't agree with your view.
You have been shown that your belief in annihilation is not valid. And you have resort to accusing me of 'word play' and of twisting the scriptures. It is impossible to carry on an intelligent conversation with people who do this. Interested readers can read what I've said to you in posts 10, 24, 28, and 34.
You have done nothing to change what Ecc 9:5 says. Ephexians 3:4, 5 doesn't change it. Commentators are more people trying to change what it says. They have no authority over the Bible to change what it states plainly. I have opted to keep it as it is. In tact. It's like watching a really bad magician. He claims he can make something disappear and the smoke goes off, the smoke clears and the object is still there.
Psalms 37:37, 38 says, "Take note of the blameless one, And keep the upright one in sight,For the future of that man will be peaceful. But all the transgressors will be destroyed;
The future of wicked people will be cut off."
There is no future for the wicked. I could give you more scriptures but I doubt they will help. Do you see how I don't need to send you to 'commentators' to get my point across? Do you see how I don't make you doubt what a word means? Go not to commentators but the Bible for answers would be my advice for you. Commentators have an agenda. I only care about the Bible's agenda.
An where did this 'soul sleep' come from? I take the word 'death' to mean exactly what means, 'in no way alive'. What a person dies there is no 'soul sleep'. Of course I what the Bible teaches about the soul. A soul is a person. Not some spiritual thing that God hung meat bodies on.
Interesting fact. The base of the word animal comes from the Latin word animalis. Which means soul or having breath. So a soul didn't always mean a spiritual thing at all. But someone made a change.
Last edited by 2Timothy316; 06-07-2016 at 02:20 PM..
You have done nothing to change what Ecc 9:5 says. Ephexians 3:4, 5 doesn't change it. Commentators are more people trying to change what it says. I have opted to keep it as it is. In tact. It's like watching a really bad magician. He claims he can make something disappear and the smoke goes off, the smoke clears and the object is still there.
Psalms 37:37, 38 says, "Take note of the blameless one, And keep the upright one in sight,For the future of that man will be peaceful. But all the transgressors will be destroyed;
The future of wicked people will be cut off."
There is no future for the wicked. I could give you more scriptures but I doubt they will help. Do you see how I don't need to send you to 'commentators' to get my point across? Do you see how I don't make you doubt what a word means? See how it go, not to commentators but the Bible for answers?
What I see is a person who is unable to objectively look at the scriptures and who must resort to accusations of Scripture twisting and word play. I took you to the Bible. I showed you from scripture that the beast and the false prophet will still be alive and conscious in the lake of fire even after a thousand years. I showed you scripture in which the Greek word apollumi refers to people and things which while lost or ruined, still continue to exist. You ignore all of that. Well, as I've said, interested readers can look at what I've already said to you. The belief in annihilation simply isn't justified.
What I see is a person who is unable to objectively look at the scriptures and who must resort to accusations of Scripture twisting and word play. I took you to the Bible. I showed you from scripture that the beast and the false prophet will still be alive and conscious in the lake of fire even after a thousand years. I showed you scripture in which the Greek word apollumi refers to people and things which while lost or ruined, still continue to exist. You ignore all of that. Well, as I've said, interested readers can look at what I've already said to you. The belief in annihilation simply isn't justified.
I have made no accusations. Read your own post. Are you or are you not trying to change the English word 'destroy' for the word 'lost'? Which gives you just enough wiggle room for your doctrine. Why does no Bible put the word 'lost'? Don't you see that something lost to God is gone? If God can't find it then it's nowhere. I'm speaking truth not accusations.
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I took you to the Bible.
You took me to 'commentators'. I've been taking you to the Bible.
There is no real beast...I really hope you are not looking for an actual beast with many heads and a woman on it's back.
No I didn't ignore anything. I listened, weighed it and rejected it based on other scriptures and not commentators. There's a difference.
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The belief in annihilation simply isn't justified.
The Bible disagrees with you.
Ps 37:10 "Just a little while longer, and the wicked will be no more;"
No more, no future, no life. Dead means dead. Dead doesn't mean alive...
As for Matthew 10:28, the Greek word translated into English as 'destroy' is the word apollumi and is frequently used in the New Testament for things or people, that while lost, or in a ruined condition, are still very much in existence.
The lost (apollumi) coin in Luke 15:8. While lost, it still exists. It has not been annihilated.
The ruined or destroyed (apollumi) wineskin in Matthew 9:17. The wineskin is in a ruined condition but it still exists.
The prodigal son who was lost (apollumi) in Luke 15:24. While lost, he continued to exist.
So also, those who are consigned to the lake of fire will be in a lost and ruined condition, but they will still be very much alive and conscious.
I found a perfect website that addresses this issue and explains the misapplication of apollumi by eternal tormentists:
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Does the Greek word for “destroy” – apollumi – really mean destroy in the strong sense that annihilationists think it does? Short answer: yes.
Further:
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It’s common to see those who deny annihilationism claiming that the word “destroy,” when used to refer to the fate of the lost, does not mean destroy in the strong sense of literally kill or wipe out. It means, they claim, something less specific, like “perish,” become “lost,” become “ruined” or something else. Hence, the argument goes, in those texts that refer to final punishment using this term, the meaning is not literal destruction at all, but rather ruination; a state of conscious but miserable existence.
The key, though, is here:
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“the apoleia word group has a range of meanings, depending on context.”1 It can be used passively, for example, to refer to a “lost” son or a “lost” coin. It can be used of non-living things like burst wineskins that are “ruined” (although this may not be a good counterexample, because if I was burst like a wineskin I would obviously die in a literal sense). But we should grant the point: The wider word group does have some range of meaning and does not always imply exactly the same thing.
So in some uses in the Bible it can refer to ruin, but the author cautions not to apply "ruin" or "to be in state of extreme distress" to other places. There are other verses in the Bible where the meaning of apollumi is pretty explicit: TOTAL ceasing to exist.
Half the translations make belief in Jesus a criteria for eternal life, while the other half make obedience the criteria for eternal life. That's problem No 1.
According to the literal interpretation of this verse those who don't receive salvation by whatever means suffer annihilation and God's wrath remains on their memory even after they are annihilated. ("the wrath of God abideth on him")
But the larger problem is that those who don't either believe in Jesus or obey him (depending on which translation you grow up with) do not inherit eternal spiritual life. That means they inherit eternal spiritual death according to how the Holy Spirit dictated the words to whoever wrote this contradicting passage. The passage then, specifically states that God will annihilate those who don't obey Jesus, or who don't believe in Jesus, take your pick.
Proof positive it's not universal redemption or eternal torment for unrepentant sinners but complete and total annihilation.
My advice would be, don't build a huge doctrine around one verse and then make your eternal future depend on it.
It's what people do nowadays, just ignore the plain majority of Scripture and basic Bible teaching. Rather pluck out 1 verse, take a dubious Greek word interpretation and build a whole doctrine around it. Same is happening with so many other issues, the majority of Scripture is ignored and 1 verse is pulled out and twisted to build a whole doctrine around.
Did you ever actually read the entire Bible thrillo?
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