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Reading the chapter of Luke 17 Jesus had the attention of some Pharisees who were money lovers. They declare themselves righteous and were 'exalted by men'. They were sneering at Jesus for what he said about not being able to serve two masters in the way of riches and God. So we need to know Jesus' audience. In short Jesus was letting them know that a person can't change the mind of someone who will not listen. Jesus was illustrating even if a person could send a message from the Grave through Abraham, these types of people still will not listen. Jesus was also warning of a reversal of roles. The rich prideful person humbled and the humble exalted.
Ecclesiastes 9:5, 10 is clear. There is no work or planing for those in the Grave. The dead know nothing at all. At any rate if the account was real what in the world is faithful Abraham doing with the rich man in hellfire?
Last edited by 2Timothy316; 06-07-2016 at 09:22 AM..
Annihilation diminishes the power of the cross. It endorses the idea the Christ triumphed over God Himself. It reduces the integrity of the Great Commission, negates justice, and has no solid doctrinal foundation.
Oh, it has tons of solid doctrinal foundation. Some have already point quite a bit. But what they have mentioned is just the tip of what's in the Bible. There's actually a much more solid case to be built for annihilation than for eternal torment. That's readily evident.
Death doesn't mean annihilation. It refers to separation. Physical death is the separation of the soul from the body. Spiritual death is separation from God. The Bible speaks of seven different categories of death, of which physical death and spiritual death are but two. In Ephesians 2:1 Paul refers to believers who at one time had been dead in their trespasses and sins. Even though in one sense, a spiritual sense, they had been dead, yet they were physically alive even though spiritually dead.
The fact that Revelation 19:20-20:10 states that the beast and the false prophet will still be alive and in torment in the lake of fire after having been there for a thousand years, and that it is said that they will be tormented forever, disproves the idea of annihilation.
A person that is spiritually dead would be a person with no faith. However, they are still physically alive. Annihilation is when both the spirit and body are dead. Jesus said: “Do not become fearful of those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul; but rather be in fear of him that can destroy both soul and body in Gehenna.” (Matthew 10:28) So yes a soul can die. There is no such thing as an eternal soul.
Oh, it has tons of solid doctrinal foundation. Some have already point quite a bit. But what they have mentioned is just the tip of what's in the Bible. There's actually a much more solid case to be built for annihilation than for eternal torment. That's readily evident.
The Bible makes no case for annihilation, and I've already shown why in post #10.
Oh, it has tons of solid doctrinal foundation. Some have already point quite a bit. But what they have mentioned is just the tip of what's in the Bible. There's actually a much more solid case to be built for annihilation than for eternal torment. That's readily evident.
Indeed it does have tons of support from the Bible. Yet just as Jesus pointed out that some minds can't be changed even if a message was from the grave with proof, so it will be with some that continue with the hellfire false doctrine.
Reading the chapter of Luke 17 Jesus had the attention of some Pharisees who were money lovers. They declare themselves righteous and were 'exalted by men'. They were sneering at Jesus for what he said about not being able to serve two masters in the way of riches and God. So we need to know Jesus' audience. In short Jesus was letting them know that a person can't change the mind of someone who will not listen. Jesus was illustrating even if a person could send a message from the Grave through Abraham, these types of people still will not listen. Jesus was also warning of a reversal of roles. The rich prideful person humbled and the humble exalted.
Ecclesiastes 9:5, 10 is clear. There is no work or planing for those in the Grave. The dead know nothing at all. At any rate if the account was real what in the world is faithful Abraham doing with the rich man in hellfire?
So Jesus was intentionally manipulative to portray a more grim than reality portrait of what happens to the unrighteous when they die?
Also Solomon wrote Ecclesiastes in a very secular humanist demeanor (i.e. "Don't be excessively righteous and don't be excessively wise" - Ecclesiastes 7:16 or "There is one fate for the righteous and the wicked (9:2)/One fate for humans and animals (3:19) )
Reading the chapter of Luke 17 Jesus had the attention of some Pharisees who were money lovers. They declare themselves righteous and were 'exalted by men'. They were sneering at Jesus for what he said about not being able to serve two masters in the way of riches and God. So we need to know Jesus' audience. In short Jesus was letting them know that a person can't change the mind of someone who will not listen. Jesus was illustrating even if a person could send a message from the Grave through Abraham, these types of people still will not listen. Jesus was also warning of a reversal of roles. The rich prideful person humbled and the humble exalted.
Ecclesiastes 9:5, 10 is clear. There is no work or planing for those in the Grave. The dead know nothing at all. At any rate if the account was real what in the world is faithful Abraham doing with the rich man in hellfire?
Abraham was not in Hell, but rather in paradise with Lazarus.
Reading the chapter of Luke 17 Jesus had the attention of some Pharisees who were money lovers. They declare themselves righteous and were 'exalted by men'. They were sneering at Jesus for what he said about not being able to serve two masters in the way of riches and God. So we need to know Jesus' audience. In short Jesus was letting them know that a person can't change the mind of someone who will not listen. Jesus was illustrating even if a person could send a message from the Grave through Abraham, these types of people still will not listen. Jesus was also warning of a reversal of roles. The rich prideful person humbled and the humble exalted.
Ecclesiastes 9:5, 10 is clear. There is no work or planing for those in the Grave. The dead know nothing at all. At any rate if the account was real what in the world is faithful Abraham doing with the rich man in hellfire?
This passage below proves that what Jesus described is not a story to make a point, but rather reality.
Daniel 12
“At that time Michael, the great prince who protects your people, will arise. There will be a time of distress such as has not happened from the beginning of nations until then. But at that time your people—everyone whose name is found written in the book—will be delivered. Multitudes who sleep in the dust of the earth will awake: some to everlasting life, others to shame and everlasting contempt."
So Jesus was intentionally manipulative to portray a more grim than reality portrait of what happens to the unrighteous when they die?
The people that listen to that illustration know there is no work or planing in the Grave. The illustration wasn't about death at all. It's about how some people will not listen even if people could send messengers from the Grave via faithful Abraham. Only those that paint the illustration with the hellfire doctrine think it's about life after death.
Quote:
Originally Posted by No Happy
Also Solomon wrote Ecclesiastes in a very secular humanist demeanor (i.e. "Don't be excessively righteous and don't be excessively wise" - Ecclesiastes 7:16 or "There is one fate for the righteous and the wicked (9:2)/One fate for humans and animals (3:19) )
Last I checked we are all human. It applies to us all. Solomon's demeanor is irrelevant. A person would be mistaken if what Solomon wrote didn't apply to them too. "For the living know that they will die, but the dead know nothing at all..." is just as true for everybody then as it is now.
This passage below proves that what Jesus described is not a story to make a point, but rather reality.
Daniel 12
“At that time Michael, the great prince who protects your people, will arise. There will be a time of distress such as has not happened from the beginning of nations until then. But at that time your people—everyone whose name is found written in the book—will be delivered. Multitudes who sleep in the dust of the earth will awake: some to everlasting life, others to shame and everlasting contempt."
What you are pointing to here is the resurrection. People will not be in the grave alive but will 'come out' from the grave. "Do not be amazed at this, for the hour is coming in which all those in the memorial tombs will hear his voice and come out, those who did good things to a resurrection of life, and those who practiced vile things to a resurrection of judgment." John 5:28. 29
The hellfire doctrine teaches that once a person is in hell there is no return yet..."The sea gave up the dead that were in it, and death and Hades gave up the dead that were in them, and each person was judged according to what they had done." - Revelation 20:13
Note in all of these scriptures point to a future time.
People will be alive when judged. To judge someone while dead is like judging a rock. Pointless. So no, your quoted scripture doesn't prove hellfire exists. The scripture at Daniel 12 (about resurrection) and the scripture in Luke (self-righteous people don't change their minds) have nothing to do with each other.
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