Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
The LDS Bible Dictionary says: A dispensation of the gospel is a period of time in which the Lord has at least one authorized servant on the earth who bears the holy priesthood and the keys, and who has a divine commission to dispense the gospel to the inhabitants of the earth.
So who is the AUTHORIZED SERVANT ON EARTH today?
Is this a real or a hypothetical question? And what, if anything, does it have to do with the OP?
later times=church age aka Christian dispensation.
What does that even mean, practically speaking. The direct answer without any word-play is that Paul, John and Peter believed they would take part in the gathering together of the saints to be lifted into the clouds at the sound of the last trumpet, It never happened. For them there wasn't a future "end times" like you believe we are in. For them the end times/last days was 50 AD and it would not stretch beyond their natural lives.
What does that even mean, practically speaking. The direct answer without any word-play is that Paul, John and Peter believed they would take part in the gathering together of the saints to be lifted into the clouds at the sound of the last trumpet, It never happened. For them there wasn't a future "end times" like you believe we are in. For them the end times/last days was 50 AD and it would not stretch beyond their natural lives.
I meant that the verse I quoted does not refer to the end times, but rather to the time period we live in now, the Church Age, which started at Pentecost and has lasted about 2000 years.
1. No contemporary secular historical accounts from Jesus' time despite the gospels saying, "His fame spread far and wide"
What did you expect? Bound copies of the Jerusalem Post, dated "A.D.29"? Did it ever occur to you that "fame" (and how it "spread", and exactly what "far and wide" were considered to be) meant different things in a world without printing presses, or mass production, or modern means of communication? And do you really think that every single written record produced at the time has been preserved, and is available to modern scholars???? Perhaps it might startle you to know that there are no contemporary historical accounts of Genghis Khan (who lived 1100 years closer to our time...), and everything we know about HIM came from decades later, too. But what doubts do you have about Genghis Khan's life and works? This, then, is a silly and ignorant argument.
Quote:
2. Gospels written 40-70 years after Jesus' death by unknown authors
But the authors aren't unknown, are they? Luke's gospel and Acts are clearly a connected pair of works by a single author. We have sources on which to base the attributions of Matthew, Mark, and John to those authors as well. And what of the letters of Paul -- aren't they by Paul? You seem to have an odd idea about ancient authorship, and how anything can be attributed to anyone.
Quote:
3. The tomb of Joseph of Aramathia never preserved as a shrine
Bad history. You seem to know nothing about the destruction of Jerusalem by the Romans in AD 70, and even more thoroughly in AD 135, the flight of Christians from Jerusalem before either event, the creation of Aelia Capitolina (which I am quite sure you never heard of before now...) and the fact that even despite this, there was a continuing tradition for 300 years of where that tomb was, which is why Helena was able to build the Church of the Holy Sepulchre there. The tomb was indeed preserved, down to its destruction in AD 1009 by the caliph al-Hakim.
Quote:
4. Conflicting accounts in the gospels
So? There are conflicting accounts of events that happen today reported in the different newspapers of any city that has more than one. You will get conflicting accounts of a traffic accident from the two different drivers. What is your point -- that unless all accounts agree, something didn't happen?
Quote:
5. Bad prophecies made by Jesus about his return in his disciples' lifetimes:
You misunderstand the meaning of the Greek word genea, which can also refer to a race of people (including the human race), and the whole age of the world.
Quote:
There are many many more but these will suffice.
Well, no, they don't suffice. You are no scholar, but seem to think that your own lack of information is somehow proof of something. At very least, you need to read more.
Those are good points and one of the better cases I have seen made.
Quote:
Originally Posted by GreenWhiteBlue
What did you expect? Bound copies of the Jerusalem Post, dated "A.D.29"? Did it ever occur to you that "fame" (and how it "spread", and exactly what "far and wide" were considered to be) meant different things in a world without printing presses, or mass production, or modern means of communication? And do you really think that every single written record produced at the time has been preserved, and is available to modern scholars???? Perhaps it might startle you to know that there are no contemporary historical accounts of Genghis Khan (who lived 1100 years closer to our time...), and everything we know about HIM came from decades later, too. But what doubts do you have about Genghis Khan's life and works? This, then, is a silly and ignorant argument.
It would be interesting to read up what records were made about him, but even what you say here makes the point - decades later, other sources attested to him, who he was and what he did.
That is not quite the case the case with Jesus and certainly not with the gospel Jesus.
Quote:
But the authors aren't unknown, are they? Luke's gospel and Acts are clearly a connected pair of works by a single author. We have sources on which to base the attributions of Matthew, Mark, and John to those authors as well. And what of the letters of Paul -- aren't they by Paul? You seem to have an odd idea about ancient authorship, and how anything can be attributed to anyone.
Well,they are, actually.I agree that Luke and Acts were written by the same person, but we don't know who that was, and the attribution of the other gospels are not credible, simply because they are hardly credible as eyewitness. Matthew - probably the most 'Jewish' of the four is demonstrably not able to read Hebrew or understand it if it had been read to him.
Quote:
Bad history. You seem to know nothing about the destruction of Jerusalem by the Romans in AD 70, and even more thoroughly in AD 135, the flight of Christians from Jerusalem before either event, the creation of Aelia Capitolina (which I am quite sure you never heard of before now...) and the fact that even despite this, there was a continuing tradition for 300 years of where that tomb was, which is why Helena was able to build the Church of the Holy Sepulchre there. The tomb was indeed preserved, down to its destruction in AD 1009 by the caliph al-Hakim.
Indeed. the wars tat ran over the city obliterated most of it, but you'd think that the location would be remembered, but then things get lost. And the present sepulchres (there are two at least ) cannot be Arimathea's tomb. In Jesus' time the tombs were being closed and the occupants moved to the mount of Olives. Indeed if you trust the gospels,the place where Jesus was crucified and thus the location of the tomb has to be on the north end of the Mount of Olives as that is the only place tat you can see the temple Veil from outside the temple compound.
Quote:
o? There are conflicting accounts of events that happen today reported in the different newspapers of any city that has more than one. You will get conflicting accounts of a traffic accident from the two different drivers. What is your point -- that unless all accounts agree, something didn't happen?
That depends on how much they conflict. When the traffic accident is reported to have happened while Reagan was president and another account says Clinton was, and one is related to demonstrations about the Vietman war and the other to the confusion of 9/11,one has got to be wrong. Minor discrepancies,perhaps, irrconcileable contradictions, no.
Quote:
You misunderstand the meaning of the Greek word genea, which can also refer to a race of people (including the human race), and the whole age of the world.
It can, but really in context - the whole context of the gospels - the idea that it would happen in their lifetimes - is hard to ignore.
Quote:
Well, no, they don't suffice. You are no scholar, but seem to think that your own lack of information is somehow proof of something. At very least, you need to read more.
I have read quite a few scholars on the subject and it is astonishing how many of them seem to ignore the obvious. I think you'll get a better idea of how reliable as a record of fact the Gospels really are by discussing with Trillobytes here. That's if you really want to know.
Becoming a Pastor, Preacher and Missionary was the deciding factor that taught me I was preaching a fallacy and I could no no longer live with myself, being a hypocrite teaching that which I no longer believed. For about my last 3 years preaching I was an Atheist. My sense of morality would no longer allow me to preach, what I no longer believed.
It was about a 40 year process of elimination that led me to believe Jesus(a.s.) was not God(swt), I was a Catholic for about 25 years, than Main Stream protestant for about 3 and the remainder of my Christian years as a very zealous Evangelical, Fundamentalist.
What did you expect? Bound copies of the Jerusalem Post, dated "A.D.29"? Did it ever occur to you that "fame" (and how it "spread", and exactly what "far and wide" were considered to be) meant different things in a world without printing presses, or mass production, or modern means of communication? And do you really think that every single written record produced at the time has been preserved, and is available to modern scholars???? Perhaps it might startle you to know that there are no contemporary historical accounts of Genghis Khan (who lived 1100 years closer to our time...), and everything we know about HIM came from decades later, too. But what doubts do you have about Genghis Khan's life and works? This, then, is a silly and ignorant argument.
But the authors aren't unknown, are they? Luke's gospel and Acts are clearly a connected pair of works by a single author. We have sources on which to base the attributions of Matthew, Mark, and John to those authors as well. And what of the letters of Paul -- aren't they by Paul? You seem to have an odd idea about ancient authorship, and how anything can be attributed to anyone.
Bad history. You seem to know nothing about the destruction of Jerusalem by the Romans in AD 70, and even more thoroughly in AD 135, the flight of Christians from Jerusalem before either event, the creation of Aelia Capitolina (which I am quite sure you never heard of before now...) and the fact that even despite this, there was a continuing tradition for 300 years of where that tomb was, which is why Helena was able to build the Church of the Holy Sepulchre there. The tomb was indeed preserved, down to its destruction in AD 1009 by the caliph al-Hakim.
So? There are conflicting accounts of events that happen today reported in the different newspapers of any city that has more than one. You will get conflicting accounts of a traffic accident from the two different drivers. What is your point -- that unless all accounts agree, something didn't happen?
You misunderstand the meaning of the Greek word genea, which can also refer to a race of people (including the human race), and the whole age of the world.
Well, no, they don't suffice. You are no scholar, but seem to think that your own lack of information is somehow proof of something. At very least, you need to read more.
Ehh! I could answer every single one of your arguments and some of them are so ludicrous as to be laughable, but I kind of figure "What's the point?" All I can say is you're going against some heavy hitters in the Bible scholar world with your opinions.
Why is this such a bug up your nose, Thrill? The specific set of beliefs ABOUT God and Christ as described in The Book are NOT the important beliefs. Believing that Christ existed and did what He claimed He did is the relevant belief. That should lead you to follow His instructions to love God and each other every day and repent when you don't. Easy peasy. Why does all the nonsense born of human vanity and hubris exasperate you so????
Jesus himself associated himself to the OT. He read it and teached it. He claimed to be the son of the OT God. This means that his credibility rides on the credibility of the OT which is absurd. Jesus is just a character in the bible part two.
IMO, most Christians, as was myself, are bible illiterate. Their faith is weak and built on a cultural tradition of peer pressure.
My faith was challenged by nasty humanist and I lost. In order to prove this nasty humanist wrong I read the bible, cover to cover. In doing so, I found it not to reflect the God preached in the church, but more a book written by men.
IMO, most Christians, as was myself, are bible illiterate. Their faith is weak and built on a cultural tradition of peer pressure.
My faith was challenged by nasty humanist and I lost. In order to prove this nasty humanist wrong I read the bible, cover to cover. In doing so, I found it not to reflect the God preached in the church, but more a book written by men.
Yours is a common story.
Congrats on getting out.
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.
Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
) cannot be Arimathea's tomb. In Jesus' time the tombs were being closed and the occupants moved to the mount of Olives. Indeed if you trust the gospels,the place where Jesus was crucified and thus the location of the tomb has to be on the north end of the Mount of Olives as that is the only place tat you can see the temple Veil from outside the temple compound. 
