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For those interested here are some experts on the Hebrew and Greek and what they have to say about the scriptures.
Gaius (AD175-200) who speaks of the source of corruptions that survive in the early papyri: "The Divine Scriptures these heretics have audaciously corrupted. Laying violent hands upon them, under pretense of correcting them."
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One of the most common biblical manuscripts used to make our modern English translations is known today as the Nestle Text. Yet it was Prof. Eberhard Nestle himself who warned us in his Einfhrung in die Textkritik des griechischen Testaments: "Learned men, so called Correctores were, following the church meeting at Nicea 325 AD, selected by the church authorities to scrutinize the sacred texts and rewrite them in order to correct their meaning in accordance with the views which the church had just sanctioned."
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One of the oldest copies of the Bible which dates back to the fifth century is the Codex Bezae, of which the Britannica writes: "Codex Bezae… has a text that is very different from other witnesses. Codex Bezae has many distinctive longer and shorter readings and seems almost to be a separate edition. Its 'Acts, for example, is one-tenth longer than usual’". How can we have a Bible that is said to be "almost… a separate edition"?
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St. Jerome when he wrote: "They write down not what they find but what they think is the meaning; and while they attempt to rectify the errors of others, they merely expose their own" (Jerome, Epist. lxxi.5).
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Eusebius writes of a number of sects of Christians of his day: "Therefore they have laid their hands boldly upon the Divine Scriptures, alleging that they have corrected them. That I am not speaking falsely of them in this matter, whoever wishes may learn. For if any one will collect their respective copies, and compare them one with another, he will find that they differ greatly. Those of Asclepiades, for example, do not agree with those of Theodotus. And many of these can be obtained, because their disciples have assiduously written the corrections, as they call them, that is the corruptions, of each of them. Again, those of Hermophilus do not agree with these, and those of Apollonides are not consistent with themselves. For you can compare those prepared by them at an earlier date with those which they corrupted later, and you will find them widely different. But how daring this offense is, it is not likely that they themselves are ignorant. For either they do not believe that the Divine Scriptures were spoken by the Holy Spirit, and thus are unbelievers, or else they think themselves wiser than the Holy Spirit, and in that case what else are they than demoniacs? For they cannot deny the commission of the crime, since the copies have been written by their own hands. For they did not receive such Scriptures from their instructors, nor can they produce any copies from which they were transcribed".
Corruption within the NIV.
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1 Pet 2:11-20
Original Text
"Dear friends, I urge you, as aliens and strangers in the world, to abstain from sinful desires, which war against your soul. Live such good lives among the pagans that, though they accuse you of doing wrong, they may see your good deeds and glorify God on the day he visits us. For it is God's will that by doing good you should silence the ignorant talk of foolish men. Live as free men, but do not use your freedom as a cover-up for evil; live as servants of God. For it is commendable if a man bears up under the pain of unjust suffering because he is conscious of God. But how is it to your credit if you receive a beating for doing wrong and endure it? But if you suffer for doing good and you endure it, this is commendable before God."
(NIV)
*
*
"Dear friends, I urge you, as aliens and strangers in the world, to abstain from sinful desires, which war against your soul. Live such good lives among the pagans that, though they accuse you of doing wrong, they may see your good deeds and glorify God on the day he visits us. Submit yourselves for the Lord's sake to every authority instituted among men: whether to the king, as the supreme authority, or to governors, who are sent by him to punish those who do wrong and to commend those who do right. For it is God's will that by doing good you should silence the ignorant talk of foolish men. Live as free men, but do not use your freedom as a cover-up for evil; live as servants of God. Show proper respect to everyone: Love the brotherhood of believers, fear God, honor the king. Slaves, submit yourselves to your masters with all respect, not only to those who are good and considerate, but also to those who are harsh. For it is commendable if a man bears up under the pain of unjust suffering because he is conscious of God. But how is it to your credit if you receive a beating for doing wrong and endure it? But if you suffer for doing good and you endure it, this is commendable before God.
(NIV)
*
Verses 13-14 and 17-18, which instruct the reader to submit themselves to the ordinances of man and honor the kings and governors was put there to exert political and social control over the people by the secular authorities of the Roman Empire.
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Conybeare then goes on and quotes the biblical scholar Dr. C.R. Gregory, and writes: "In the case just examined (Matthew 28:19), it is to be noticed that not a single manuscript or ancient version has preserved to us the true reading. But that is not surprising, for as Dr. C.R. Gregory, one of the greatest of our textual critics, reminds us, 'The Greek MSS of the Text of the New Testament were often altered by the scribes, who put into them the readings which were familiar to them, and which they held to be the right readings' (Canon and Text of the New Testament, 1907, p. 424)".
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Conybeare then writes: "These facts speak for themselves. Our Greek texts, not only of the Gospels, but of the Epistles as well, have been revised and interpolated by orthodox copyists. We can trace their perversions of the text in a few cases, with the aid of patristic citations and ancient versions. But there must remain many passages which have been so corrected, but where we cannot today expose the fraud".
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In the publication, The Fraternal Visitor, this assessment was made concerning the falsification of the scriptures: "Codex B (Vaticanus) would be the best of all existing MSS, …if it were completely preserved, less damaged, (less) corrected, more easily legible, and not altered by a later hand in more than two thousand places. Eusebius, therefore, is not without grounds for accusing the adherents of Athanasius and the newly-risen doctrine of the trinity of falsifying the Bible even more than once" (Fraternal Visitor 1924, p. 148; translated from Christadelphian Monatshefte).
And what does the bible warn us of?
Deuteronomy 4:2
King James Version (KJV)
2Ye shall not add unto the word which I command you, neither shall ye diminish ought from it, that ye may keep the commandments of the LORD your God which I command you.
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*
Deuteronomy 12:32
King James Version (KJV)
32What thing soever I command you, observe to do it: thou shalt not add thereto, nor diminish from it.
*
Proverbs 30:5-6
5Every word of God is pure: he is a shield unto them that put their trust in him.
6Add thou not unto his words, lest he reprove thee, and thou be found a liar.
*
Revelation 22:18-19
King James Version (KJV)
18For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book, If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book:
19And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book.
It is obvious God knew people would alter His word and warns against it. And we all know how well man has obeyed God warnings.
This should be a "sticky" at the top of the Christianity forum.
No one denies the existence of textual variants both in the Old and New Testaments. The issue is whether or not the textual variants (the corruptions) change any point of doctrine. With regard to the New Testament, textual scholars say that they do not.
<snip> TL
New Testament textual criticism then is a very important endeavor as it demonstrates the reliability of our New Testament text.
This supposed refutation of the altering of scriptures is a tautology. The alterations were done to make them CONSISTENT with the preferred views of the council and subsequent scribes. To then point to the CONSISTENCY of the underlying views as proof that they were accurate presentations is circular reasoning.
This supposed refutation of the altering of scriptures is a tautology. The alterations were done to make them CONSISTENT with the preferred views of the council and subsequent scribes. To then point to the CONSISTENCY of the underlying views as proof that they were accurate presentations is circular reasoning.
No, the refutation is the expert opinion of the best New Testament textual critics who maintain that our present text is upwards of 99% faithful to the original text. None of the textual variants affect any of the cardinal doctrines of the Christian faith. Some of the 'alterations' were done with the best of intentions where a scribe thought he was correcting an error. Some 'alterations' were done in an attempt to protect certain doctrine ( the attempt was not necessary). Some 'alterations' were simply mistakes made by tired scribes or by scribes who were not very good at copying the text. Some 'alternations' expanded on the text. This was common in the later texts.
But in spite of the textual variants, the NT text is amazingly faithful to the original text.
Moderator cut: delete
Last edited by Miss Blue; 08-08-2017 at 08:29 PM..
Reason: insulting remark
For those interested here are some experts on the Hebrew and Greek and what they have to say about the scriptures.
Gaius (AD175-200) who speaks of the source of corruptions that survive in the early papyri: "The Divine Scriptures these heretics have audaciously corrupted. Laying violent hands upon them, under pretense of correcting them."
*
*
*
One of the most common biblical manuscripts used to make our modern English translations is known today as the Nestle Text. Yet it was Prof. Eberhard Nestle himself who warned us in his Einfhrung in die Textkritik des griechischen Testaments: "Learned men, so called Correctores were, following the church meeting at Nicea 325 AD, selected by the church authorities to scrutinize the sacred texts and rewrite them in order to correct their meaning in accordance with the views which the church had just sanctioned."
*
*
*
One of the oldest copies of the Bible which dates back to the fifth century is the Codex Bezae, of which the Britannica writes: "Codex Bezae… has a text that is very different from other witnesses. Codex Bezae has many distinctive longer and shorter readings and seems almost to be a separate edition. Its 'Acts, for example, is one-tenth longer than usual’". How can we have a Bible that is said to be "almost… a separate edition"?
*
*
*
St. Jerome when he wrote: "They write down not what they find but what they think is the meaning; and while they attempt to rectify the errors of others, they merely expose their own" (Jerome, Epist. lxxi.5).
*
*
Eusebius writes of a number of sects of Christians of his day: "Therefore they have laid their hands boldly upon the Divine Scriptures, alleging that they have corrected them. That I am not speaking falsely of them in this matter, whoever wishes may learn. For if any one will collect their respective copies, and compare them one with another, he will find that they differ greatly. Those of Asclepiades, for example, do not agree with those of Theodotus. And many of these can be obtained, because their disciples have assiduously written the corrections, as they call them, that is the corruptions, of each of them. Again, those of Hermophilus do not agree with these, and those of Apollonides are not consistent with themselves. For you can compare those prepared by them at an earlier date with those which they corrupted later, and you will find them widely different. But how daring this offense is, it is not likely that they themselves are ignorant. For either they do not believe that the Divine Scriptures were spoken by the Holy Spirit, and thus are unbelievers, or else they think themselves wiser than the Holy Spirit, and in that case what else are they than demoniacs? For they cannot deny the commission of the crime, since the copies have been written by their own hands. For they did not receive such Scriptures from their instructors, nor can they produce any copies from which they were transcribed".
Corruption within the NIV.
*
1 Pet 2:11-20
Original Text
"Dear friends, I urge you, as aliens and strangers in the world, to abstain from sinful desires, which war against your soul. Live such good lives among the pagans that, though they accuse you of doing wrong, they may see your good deeds and glorify God on the day he visits us. For it is God's will that by doing good you should silence the ignorant talk of foolish men. Live as free men, but do not use your freedom as a cover-up for evil; live as servants of God. For it is commendable if a man bears up under the pain of unjust suffering because he is conscious of God. But how is it to your credit if you receive a beating for doing wrong and endure it? But if you suffer for doing good and you endure it, this is commendable before God."
(NIV)
*
*
"Dear friends, I urge you, as aliens and strangers in the world, to abstain from sinful desires, which war against your soul. Live such good lives among the pagans that, though they accuse you of doing wrong, they may see your good deeds and glorify God on the day he visits us. Submit yourselves for the Lord's sake to every authority instituted among men: whether to the king, as the supreme authority, or to governors, who are sent by him to punish those who do wrong and to commend those who do right. For it is God's will that by doing good you should silence the ignorant talk of foolish men. Live as free men, but do not use your freedom as a cover-up for evil; live as servants of God. Show proper respect to everyone: Love the brotherhood of believers, fear God, honor the king. Slaves, submit yourselves to your masters with all respect, not only to those who are good and considerate, but also to those who are harsh. For it is commendable if a man bears up under the pain of unjust suffering because he is conscious of God. But how is it to your credit if you receive a beating for doing wrong and endure it? But if you suffer for doing good and you endure it, this is commendable before God.
(NIV)
*
Verses 13-14 and 17-18, which instruct the reader to submit themselves to the ordinances of man and honor the kings and governors was put there to exert political and social control over the people by the secular authorities of the Roman Empire.
*
*
Conybeare then goes on and quotes the biblical scholar Dr. C.R. Gregory, and writes: "In the case just examined (Matthew 28:19), it is to be noticed that not a single manuscript or ancient version has preserved to us the true reading. But that is not surprising, for as Dr. C.R. Gregory, one of the greatest of our textual critics, reminds us, 'The Greek MSS of the Text of the New Testament were often altered by the scribes, who put into them the readings which were familiar to them, and which they held to be the right readings' (Canon and Text of the New Testament, 1907, p. 424)".
*
Conybeare then writes: "These facts speak for themselves. Our Greek texts, not only of the Gospels, but of the Epistles as well, have been revised and interpolated by orthodox copyists. We can trace their perversions of the text in a few cases, with the aid of patristic citations and ancient versions. But there must remain many passages which have been so corrected, but where we cannot today expose the fraud".
*
*
In the publication, The Fraternal Visitor, this assessment was made concerning the falsification of the scriptures: "Codex B (Vaticanus) would be the best of all existing MSS, …if it were completely preserved, less damaged, (less) corrected, more easily legible, and not altered by a later hand in more than two thousand places. Eusebius, therefore, is not without grounds for accusing the adherents of Athanasius and the newly-risen doctrine of the trinity of falsifying the Bible even more than once" (Fraternal Visitor 1924, p. 148; translated from Christadelphian Monatshefte).
And what does the bible warn us of?
Deuteronomy 4:2
King James Version (KJV)
2Ye shall not add unto the word which I command you, neither shall ye diminish ought from it, that ye may keep the commandments of the LORD your God which I command you.
*
*
Deuteronomy 12:32
King James Version (KJV)
32What thing soever I command you, observe to do it: thou shalt not add thereto, nor diminish from it.
*
Proverbs 30:5-6
5Every word of God is pure: he is a shield unto them that put their trust in him.
6Add thou not unto his words, lest he reprove thee, and thou be found a liar.
*
Revelation 22:18-19
King James Version (KJV)
18For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book, If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book:
19And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book.
It is obvious God knew people would alter His word and warns against it. And we all know how well man has obeyed God warnings.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike555
No one denies the existence of textual variants both in the Old and New Testaments. The issue is whether or not the textual variants (the corruptions) change any point of doctrine. With regard to the New Testament, textual scholars say that they do not.
Alterations are alterations, and yes, they do have an impact.
Alterations are alterations, and yes, they do have an impact.
Alterations are not all the same, and the vast majority of those alterations, those variants, are nothing more than simple spelling errors which have absolutely no impact. I have listed the types of alterations in post #53. Less than one percent of the variants have any effect on the meaning of the text, and the effect is minor. Again, no cardinal doctrine is affected by any of the variants. And that is the position of experts in the field of New Testament textual criticism.
And in fact, Paul wrote in 1 Corinthians not to exceed what was written.
I Cor. 4:6 Now these things, brethren, I have figuratively applied to myself and Apollos for your sakes, so that in us you may learn not to exceed what is written, so that no one of you will become arrogant in behalf of one against the other.
In other words, you have to stick with what the Scripture says, “…so that no one of you will become arrogant in behalf of one against the other.”
But many people have no respect for the authority of the apostles as Jesus' appointed representatives to the early church and to the authority of the Scriptures which were written by the apostles (and others who were closely associated with the apostles).
Oh WOW! Talk about twisting meaning! "And these things, brothers, I have in a figure transferred to myself and to Apollos for your sakes; that you might learn in us not to think of men above that which is written, that no one of you be puffed up for one against another." Is a better and clearer translation that won't be so easily twisted.
If there is any doubt, check commentaries as:For who maketh thee to differ from another,.... This question, and the following, are put to the members of this church, who were glorying in, and boasting of the ministers under whom they were converted, and by whom they were baptized, to the neglect and contempt of others; when the apostle would have them consider, and whatever difference was made between them and others, was made, not by man, but God; that whatever good and benefit they had enjoyed under their respective ministers, were in a way of receiving, and from God; and therefore they ought not to glory in themselves, nor in their ministers, but in God, who had distinguished them by his favours: Gill's Exposiotion.
This supposed refutation of the altering of scriptures is a tautology. The alterations were done to make them CONSISTENT with the preferred views of the council and subsequent scribes. To then point to the CONSISTENCY of the underlying views as proof that they were accurate presentations is circular reasoning.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike555
No, the refutation is the expert opinion of the best New Testament textual critics who maintain that our present text is upwards of 99% faithful to the original text. None of the textual variants affect any of the cardinal doctrines of the Christian faith. Some of the 'alterations' were done with the best of intentions where a scribe thought he was correcting an error. Some 'alterations' were done in an attempt to protect certain doctrine ( the attempt was not necessary). Some 'alterations' were simply mistakes made by tired scribes or by scribes who were not very good at copying the text. Some 'alternations' expanded on the text. This was common in the later texts.
But in spite of the textual variants, the NT text is amazingly faithful to the original text.
You shouldn't talk about things of which you obviously have very little knowledge.
Your reliance on experts who make an unsupportable claim reveals your unwillingness to think and reason for yourself. Since there are NO ORIGINAL texts in existence, the claim is unsupportable on its face no matter how expert the claimants are.
Actually, my reply to that in post #53 should be a ''sticky'' at the top of the Christianity forum.
Amen to that.... Not that it will happen.... Peace
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This should be a "sticky" at the top of the Christianity forum.
Peace
