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Even IF true, NONE OF IT, makes ONE IOTA of difference because they couldn't change the precepts hidden in plain sight because they couldn't see them to begin with, and they didn't change the Tabernacle description because they didn't think they had to. NOTHING man has tried to do has kept His Word from being heard. Peace
I agree because God has always had people ( like Jeremiah) who could look beyond what the lying pen of the scribes added to the law and see the truth.
No, a rational person changes his views to fit the facts. An irrational person continues hang onto his fantasies, er, theories. Fact is, a simple reading of the text revealed the meaning to anyone interested in obtaining the truth, NOT trying to build a golden calf out of it. Peace
8“ ‘How can you say, “We are wise,
for we have the law of the*Lord,”
when actually the lying pen of the scribes
has handled it falsely?
9The wise will be put to shame;
they will be dismayed and trapped.
Since they have rejected the word of the*Lord,
what kind of wisdom do they have?
NLT
8“‘How can you say, “We are wise because we have the word of the LORD,”
when your teachers have twisted it by writing lies?
9These wise teachers will fall
into the trap of their own foolishness,
for they have rejected the word of the LORD.
Are they so wise after all?
ESV
8“How can you say, ‘We are wise,
and the law of the*LORD*is with us’?
But behold, the lying pen of the scribes
has made it into a lie.
9The wise men shall be put to shame;
they shall be dismayed and taken;
behold, they have rejected the word of the*LORD,
so what wisdom is in them?
NASB
8“How can you say, ‘We are wise,
************And the law of the LORD*is with us’?
************But behold, the lying pen of the scribes
************Has made*it*into a lie.
******9“The wise men are put to shame,
************They are dismayed and caught;
************Behold, they have rejected the word of the LORD,
************And what kind of wisdom do they have?
Just by reading these other translations we can see your understanding of Jer.8 is in error.
The scribes were rejecting Jeremiahs counsel ( just like you are rejecting what I have said) on the grounds that they had the divinely given law in written form and Jeremiah replied, you scribes have changed Gods laws with your lying pens.
Adam Clarke puts it this way
The deceitful pen of the scribes. They have written falsely, though they had the truth before them. It is too bold an assertion to say that "the Jews have never falsified the sacred oracles;" they have done it again and again. They have written falsities when they knew they were such.
You look at the CONTEXT, and you look at the words of the original language, and it's CLEAR that the lie is that they REJECT G-D'S Word AS IF it were a lie worthy to BE rejected. I'm sorry your whole, "the scriptures are lies" theory rests on one misinterpreted scripture, but that's what happens when you try to take just ONE and build something around it. They are a COHESIVE WHOLE, paint a WHOLE picture, not a tiny spot of afterthought. There is, no "lying pen of the scribes", the NIV is rampant with mistranslations because it's based on what they THINK was meant to the exclusion nearly of everything else.
Furthermore, if you want to get spiritual about it, a lying pen is that which writes upon the hearts of men, ie. their carnal mind and the carnal mind of others (because the carnal mind is enmity against G-d and therefore is a liar), because conversely, HIS Spirit is the pen that writes upon the hearts of men. Which means all the more, that a literal one was not what was being said, but rather that they IGNORED THE WORD OF THE LORD for their OWN MINDS, ie. chose a lie over the Truth. Happens every day, all the day long. Here, for example.
And THIS, is an example of what I was talking about when I said they couldn't change the PRECEPTS hidden in plain sight (no one can), because what I just shared above was a PRECEPT. Peace
8“ ‘How can you say, “We are wise,
for we have the law of the*Lord,â€
when actually the lying pen of the scribes
has handled it falsely?
9The wise will be put to shame;
they will be dismayed and trapped.
Since they have rejected the word of the*Lord,
what kind of wisdom do they have?
NLT
8“‘How can you say, “We are wise because we have the word of the LORD,â€
when your teachers have twisted it by writing lies?
9These wise teachers will fall
into the trap of their own foolishness,
for they have rejected the word of the LORD.
Are they so wise after all?
ESV
8“How can you say, ‘We are wise,
and the law of the*LORD*is with us’?
But behold, the lying pen of the scribes
has made it into a lie.
9The wise men shall be put to shame;
they shall be dismayed and taken;
behold, they have rejected the word of the*LORD,
so what wisdom is in them?
NASB
8“How can you say, ‘We are wise,
************And the law of the LORD*is with us’?
************But behold, the lying pen of the scribes
************Has made*it*into a lie.
******9“The wise men are put to shame,
************They are dismayed and caught;
************Behold, they have rejected the word of the LORD,
************And what kind of wisdom do they have?
Just by reading these other translations we can see your understanding of Jer.8 is in error.
The scribes were rejecting Jeremiahs counsel ( just like you are rejecting what I have said) on the grounds that they had the divinely given law in written form and Jeremiah replied, you scribes have changed Gods laws with your lying pens.
Adam Clarke puts it this way
The deceitful pen of the scribes. They have written falsely, though they had the truth before them. It is too bold an assertion to say that "the Jews have never falsified the sacred oracles;" they have done it again and again. They have written falsities when they knew they were such.
Amen. It is not possible to reason with unreasoning credulity, pneuma. This forum reveals that every single day.
You look at the CONTEXT, and you look at the words of the original language, and it's CLEAR that the lie is that they REJECT G-D'S Word AS IF it were a lie worthy to BE rejected. I'm sorry your whole, "the scriptures are lies" theory rests on one misinterpreted scripture, but that's what happens when you try to take just ONE and build something around it. They are a COHESIVE WHOLE, paint a WHOLE picture, not a tiny spot of afterthought. There is, no "lying pen of the scribes", the NIV is rampant with mistranslations because it's based on what they THINK was meant to the exclusion nearly of everything else.
Furthermore, if you want to get spiritual about it, a lying pen is that which writes upon the hearts of men, ie. their carnal mind and the carnal mind of others (because the carnal mind is enmity against G-d and therefore is a liar), because conversely, HIS Spirit is the pen that writes upon the hearts of men. Which means all the more, that a literal one was not what was being said, but rather that they IGNORED THE WORD OF THE LORD for their OWN MINDS, ie. chose a lie over the Truth. Happens every day, all the day long. Here, for example.
And THIS, is an example of what I was talking about when I said they couldn't change the PRECEPTS hidden in plain sight (no one can), because what I just shared above was a PRECEPT. Peace
You think it rest just on Jer.8 but you don't answer questions that show your error.
When Paul said all scripture was inspired by God the bible in use was the Septuagint which contained these books
I Esdras, Tobit, Judith, I Maccabees, II Maccabees,
III Maccabees, IV Maccabees, Wisdom, Sirach, Baruch, Osee, Michaeas, Ambacum, Sophonias
Aggaeus
Now if the bible=scripture and it was the bible Paul was referring to then these books are inspired by God.
However those who hold the bible =scripture do not believe those books are inspired by God thus making themselves hypocrites for condemning me for pointing out that not everything in the bible is scripture.
It is no wonder when I ask this question you all run from the light like a cockroach.
You think it rest just on Jer.8 but you don't answer questions that show your error.
When Paul said all scripture was inspired by God the bible in use was the Septuagint which contained these books
I Esdras, Tobit, Judith, I Maccabees, II Maccabees,
III Maccabees, IV Maccabees, Wisdom, Sirach, Baruch, Osee, Michaeas, Ambacum, Sophonias
Aggaeus
Now if the bible=scripture and it was the bible Paul was referring to then these books are inspired by God.
However those who hold the bible =scripture do not believe those books are inspired by God thus making themselves hypocrites for condemning me for pointing out that not everything in the bible is scripture.
It is no wonder when I ask this question you all run from the light like a cockroach.
It's not us that runs from the light. I didn't answer because I haven't read those books in 3 decades, and don't feel any leading to do so now, so as to reply to question. Fair enough? Peace
It's not us that runs from the light. I didn't answer because I haven't read those books in 3 decades, and don't feel any leading to do so now, so as to reply to question. Fair enough? Peace
At least you recognize my point rbbi. almost all the bibles we have today reject those books as scriptures so have deleted them from the bible, thus showing they did not believe the bible=scripture.
The Ethiopian bible contains the first book of Enoch and the RCC bible contains many of those books I mentioned earlier, so which of all the bibles out there are the infallible, inerrant, undefiled word of God?
Man has added to the bible and taken away from the bible just as I have said and the proof of that has been shown in the rejection of all those books even though Paul said all scripture is inspired by God and Paul said that when many of those works were in the bible of his day.
So if those who believe the bible =scripture and often quote Paul about the inspiration of all scripture then they have no leg to stand on unless they also believe those works that were rejected as inspired are indeed also inspired. However they don't do that, which makes them hypocrites to condemn me or others who hold the bible does not = scripture.
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