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Precisely, George, and it is left to us whether to believe that the reference is to a physical fact or a spiritual one. If it is to a physical fact then the transformation by ceremonial means can be classified as "magic." This is borne out by the idea that a consecrated priest does cause the transformation regardless of his motive for doing so.
well, many of Jesus' listeners apparently believed that He indeed meant a "physical" change which not surprisingly horrified and repelled them---and He (supposedly so zealous for the salvation of souls) surprisingly did NOT try to convince them otherwise so they would continue to follow Him and thus be "saved" ("hey guys, come back I was just spit-balling on this one, honest")---strange, huh???
as for "magic" guess it depends on one's definition of the term. it is well to remember that AFAIK the Eucharist is "used" only for good---the nourishment and edification of Christians and that the "magic" if you call it that happens solely because of the power of God working through the ministry of His human agent (the priest) who has zip, zero, nada power to do anything (at least in the beliefs right, wrong, or indifferent of those benighted R.C.'s and Orthodox) except in, with, and through Christ (who seemed to be totally into miracles---not magic---with all the water into wine changing, walking on water, giving sight to the blind, walking through locked doors, being killed and not staying dead, etc. etc., etc.) to help and heal.
some folks say "miracles" by the power of God some say magic (maybe by the power of the devil---certainly that's what some folks: scribes and Pharisees "learned in the law" accused Him of)---everyone of us has the opportunity to make that decision for themselves---and hopefully in charity allows others no matter how silly they might appear to us to have their own hopefully sincere take on the matter.
one could say perhaps that Jesus continues to ask us now what He originally asked His disciples way back when----"who do YOU think I am?" and then maybe challenges us with what we are going to believe, think, and do with the answer we do make.
in the peace of Christ.
Last edited by georgeinbandonoregon; 09-21-2017 at 11:29 AM..
Christians want to receive it because Jesus told us to we want to remember what He did for us. To say we must believe like you do, is judgmental and basically saying we are not Christians.
The Lord's table is for all believers in Jesus Christ, not in our different interpretations. The only Biblical requirement is that the person do it in remembrance of what Jesus did for them. All a church needs to is read the warning in I Cor 27-28, then the person, not the church is responsible for what they do.
Oh you are Christians alright just not believing in the Eucharist is truly God Christians. If you don't believe then don't say you do when going up to communion and saying "Amen" which is "I believe it is Christ's body" when taking the host.
Please listen to the videos I posted. They explain it very well.
Most Christians would see it as that, you must know that. Christian, including Roman Catholic, missionaries routinely dismiss other people's most cherished religious beliefs as "superstition." Just chalk your experience up to turn-about-is-fair-play, and let it go.
I don't doubt that he was referring to transubstantiation as a kind of hokus-pokus. And you are surprised, much less insulted? I would think that if you go back to the 1950s with your faith you should be used to having transubstantiation dismissed as such. Most Christians thoroughly reject it as pretty much what that minister said - a kind of magic act, and an embarrassment to Christianity. I would guess that as he was inviting everyone that he wanted to be quite clear what was not going on, i.e. no magic act.
His remark certainly has absolutely nothing to do with what you believe goes on in the mass at your church...you know that! Most R.C.s of my era would simply have sneered him off as a pitiful ******** heretic and been quite happy in their True Faith.
No, not a heretic but not in full communion with the Catholic church.
Missionaries worked with the people's beliefs and tried to incorporate them into the religion as much as they could. That is why many think a lot of worship in the church is Pagan. The main worship and beliefs were not changed but they did work with the people as much as they could so as not to turn them away from learning about Jesus.
This group may love this wild story.
So, I want to take the Eucharist to my seat and pray , get deeply centered before I
place It in my mouth.
I am slowly walking back to my pew (Oh, it is an 8 am Wed Mass with 20 people there only)
I hear pounding steps, with keys on a belt jangling behind me.
An overweight, balding, 35 yr old...pivots in front of me, while I'm delicately holding the Eucharist...and says,
"Eat Jesus!"
I look at him calmly puzzled and he repeats firmly, "Eat Jesus, now!" So, I calmly do and sit at my place.
(For the story's sake, I am well dressed, lookin' damn good, serene..not some rough looking agitator...)
I deliberately linger in the back looking at the pamphlets, knowing this guy must feel like a
complete fool and needs to talk to me.
Indeed, he rushes to me and apologizes profusely...I place my hand on his shoulder, smile and say it's alright. He is so relieved...and explains that some people have taken the Eucharist and placed it in obscene artwork and such.
Oh, I see.
For his sake, God blessed me with a loving, peace that morning so the talk
afterwards was sweet and forgiving. He may not be so militant at the next Mass! Gosh!
Well I should hope he is "militant". I guess you have not heard of the Satanists who take the Eucharist and use it in their mockery masses. Blasphemy for sure.
Google Oklahoma City and Satanist mass to learn more. The archbishop had to sue the Satanist to get the host back since it was stolen. Evil for sure.
Well, george, the problem the followers had in what Jesus said is that they DID take it physically and were justifiably horrified in their error.
But don't you think it strange Jesus didn't clarify the meaning for them but instead let them leave? Look up Eucharist miracles. Hosts turning into blood, so in a way it is very physical. It's a mystery that it can be physical and spiritual as well but a lot of our faith is a mystery----that is why it is called faith----believing without needing to see.
As Christ said, "Blessed are those who have not seen but have believed." As in the case of Thomas who said he had to physically see Jesus to believe he had risen from the dead.
But don't you think it strange Jesus didn't clarify the meaning for them but instead let them leave? Look up Eucharist miracles. Hosts turning into blood, so in a way it is very physical. It's a mystery that it can be physical and spiritual as well but a lot of our faith is a mystery----that is why it is called faith----believing without needing to see.
As Christ said, "Blessed are those who have not seen but have believed." As in the case of Thomas who said he had to physically see Jesus to believe he had risen from the dead.
He did, actually. Read John 6. He said to "eat of him" is to believe. John 6:29, 6:40
Nowhere in there does it suggest that we gain eternal life by eating...but instead we gain eternal life by believing.
Yes, the connection to obscene art and "black masses" occurred to me while reading your narration.
The person erred in how he presented himself at that moment, but his agitation is understandable.
He did, actually. Read John 6. He said to "eat of him" is to believe. John 6:29, 6:40
Nowhere in there does it suggest that we gain eternal life by eating...but instead we gain eternal life by believing.
It's a both, and. Of course, first one needs to believe to come to communion or you are just going through the motions.
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