Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
Are you using the term "Catholic" in the sense of being the "universal" church, the body of Christ in general, or specifically as being the RCC, as opposed to the Eastern Orthodox and Protestant churches, for example?
I mean what you are calling "the RCC". That "the RCC" is the Church founded by Christ is something I firmly believe; but I will not argue it in this thread as it is off-topic.
Surely you are familiar with the Scriptural defenses for the doctrine of eternal hell...
Of course I am. I was taught the traditions of men, shortly after coming to faith in Christ, just like you.
However, the Holy Spirit would never allow me to embrace those doctrines, but would always lead me through the scriptures instructing me what to believe. When I was taught something the Spirit did not want me to believe, I would feel Christ's Spirit grieve within me. That is how I knew what doctrines were from God and what were from man.
When I would come home from school, I simply went into my bedroom, closed the door and opened my bible. I was a very poor reader at the time, 17 years of age and until then only cared about baseball, girls in school, and having a beer or two with my friends on weekends.
So, the Holy Spirit, having little to work with, would graciously sit next to me, and help me through my infirmities by lifting the texts off the bible and floating them into my heart. Those texts I share with others here on City-Data.
Of course I am. I was taught the traditions of men, shortly after coming to faith in Christ, just like you.
However, the Holy Spirit would never allow me to embrace those doctrines, but would always lead me through the scriptures instructing me what to believe.
I would answer that one may think they are being led by the Holy Spirit; but they have no way of being objectively sure of that unless they place themselves under the proper authority established by Christ Himself - namely the Church.
Quote:
Originally Posted by jjGuru
When I was taught something the Spirit did not want me to believe, I would feel Christ's Spirit grieve within me. That is how I knew what doctrines were from God and what were from man.
This is a purely subjective standard, and there is no reason anybody should take your experience as even remotely authoritative.
Quote:
Originally Posted by jjGuru
When I would come home from school, I simply went into my bedroom, closed the door and opened my bible. I was a very poor reader at the time, 17 years of age and until then only cared about baseball, girls in school, and having a beer or two with my friends on weekends.
So, the Holy Spirit, having little to work with, would graciously sit next to me, and help me through my infirmities by lifting the texts off the bible and floating them into my heart. Those texts I share with others here on City-Data.
I mean what you are calling "the RCC". That "the RCC" is the Church founded by Christ is something I firmly believe; but I will not argue it in this thread as it is off-topic.
I see. Actually, I don't have anything against the RCC, I think they do much good in feeding the poor, visiting orphans and widows, etc (Jas 1:27). I just don't accept the traditions they teach that conflict with scripture. Christ has given me liberty to do so in this regard.
I affirm 1 Timothy 3:15. The Church is the pillar of truth. That is not to say that Scripture isn't true; of course it is.
"Science" is not divinely authoritative. Scripture and Tradition are.
Yes. The Catholic Church was explicitly founded by Christ Himself for the purpose of leading men to all Truth and finally to salvation.
Not at all. The Holy Spirit works through the Church to lead us into all truth. If you want to follow the Holy Spirit, then you must follow the Church.
This is simply not true. The Scriptures are ours and they are authoritative. Certain Scriptures can *seem* to contradict one another, so they must be interpreted in the light of Tradition.
This is a false accusation. I do believe the Scriptures. I just don't *interpret* them the way you do.
The church is the body of Christ and has nothing to do with the RCC.
Scripture is Devine authority, tradition is only if it is in line with the scriptures, as jj pointed out to you, they must be a mirror image of each other.
No the RCC was not founded by Jesus Christ, he is the head of the body, which is the church universal. His body is not a Roman body but a universal body that encompasses all peoples of all nations. And as he and on he is the head of the body we only need to listen to him.
Scripture does a fine job of interpreting itself you do not need the RCC to do that for you. If one can read, one can find the answers for themselves. Leaving it up to others to interpret for them is either childish or lazy.
Mike you deny Jesus Christ is the saviour of the world because of RCC traditions. As I said before an interpretation shows agreement with the scripture and not disagreement. Then I asked you to show me either yourself or via your church tradition your agreement with Jesus Christ being the saviour of the world.
I mean what you are calling "the RCC". That "the RCC" is the Church founded by Christ is something I firmly believe; but I will not argue it in this thread as it is off-topic.
I don’t think that is off-topic on this thread
The RCC and the orthodox initially provided the height and has the starting of the division between left/right, orthodox/heretic, upper/lower, inner/outer, etc
The Protestants provide depth and also breadth with many divisions but also having parts of that left/right, orthodox/heretic, upper/lower, inner/outer,
This is what Jesus came to do in His body which has many members - as Paul tell us
The church is universal but does have immense height, depth and breadth and along with that increasing in size it needs various separation and divisions and diversity due to the different functions, responsibilities, area, etc
1Co 12:1**Now concerning spiritual gifts, brethren, I would not have you ignorant.
1Co 12:2**Ye know that ye were Gentiles, carried away unto these dumb idols, even as ye were led.
1Co 12:3**Wherefore I give you to understand, that no man speaking by the Spirit of God calleth Jesus accursed: and that no man can say that Jesus is the Lord, but by the Holy Ghost.
1Co 12:4**Now there are diversities of gifts, but the same Spirit.
1Co 12:5**And there are differences of administrations, but the same Lord.
1Co 12:6**And there are diversities of operations, but it is the same God which worketh all in all.
1Co 12:7**But the manifestation of the Spirit is given to every man to profit withal.
1Co 12:8**For to one is given by the Spirit the word of wisdom; to another the word of knowledge by the same Spirit;
1Co 12:9**To another faith by the same Spirit; to another the gifts of healing by the same Spirit;
1Co 12:10**To another the working of miracles; to another prophecy; to another discerning of spirits; to another divers kinds of tongues; to another the interpretation of tongues:
1Co 12:11**But all these worketh that one and the selfsame Spirit, dividing to every man severally as he will.
This has nothing to do with my point. All of the books of the New Testament had also been written for hundreds of years before they were canonized into Scripture at the end of the 4th century.
If I took another’s writings and put them in my book and called it my book I would be charged with plagiarism or theft.
Tradition has been used to abuse the word of God for thousands of years, predating the RCC's existence. It was even abused in Jesus' day by those who were entrusted with preserving the oracles of God (Rom 3:2). A few examples of such abuse are found here:
Mat 15:3 But he answered and said unto them, Why do ye also transgress the commandment of God by your tradition?
Mat 15:6 And honour not his father or his mother, he shall be free. Thus have ye made the commandment of God of none effect by your tradition.
Mar 7:13 Making the word of God of none effect through your tradition, which ye have delivered: and many such like things do ye.
What I find of interest is that Jesus called Jewish tradition "your tradition". Christ would not identify with it, at least not the ones He repudiated, even though Jesus Himself was a Jew, raised in the Jewish Synagogue.
I'm not necessarily Sola-Scriptura as the Protestant church is, because the concept of "tradition" is found in scripture. The Greek term "παράδοσις", translated as "tradition" or "ordinance" in the KJV, is found 11 times or so in the Greek NT.
When the term is employed by Paul, it's used in the sense of orally being taught what had been previously written down on parchment. The term "παράδοσις" carries with it the meaning of "delivery". It's not only about what is being said, but how it's being delivered. Obviously, there were no printing presses in Paul's day, and good scribes were hard to come by, so virtually everything that circulated among congregations was "oral" rather than transcribed from original source material and hand delivered to it's congregants.
When I was a student in school, I remember an experiment where the person sitting farthest back in class would read to the student sitting in front of them a very short single paragraph story. That student would then tell the story to the person sitting in front of them, etc. After the short story made it's way to the front of the class it was then written on the black board for the class to read. The original story had became indecipherable. Much like what tradition can do to scripture.
Tradition, from my perspective, is simply the word of God being delivered orally to a congregation, rather than being read from parchment (Gk "μεμβράνα"). Whether delivered orally (tradition) or by letter (parchment), the two must always agree. And it's not a matter of interpretation. They must agree "verbatim". If you don't have written scripture (parchment) to support what you say orally (tradition), then oral tradition can make the word of God "[b]of none effect[/B]".
No the RCC was not founded by Jesus Christ, he is the head of the body, which is the church universal. His body is not a Roman body but a universal body that encompasses all peoples of all nations. And as he and on he is the head of the body we only need to listen to him.
"The RCC" is a universal body that encompasses all peoples and nations.
Quote:
Originally Posted by pneuma
Scripture does a fine job of interpreting itself you do not need the RCC to do that for you. If one can read, one can find the answers for themselves. Leaving it up to others to interpret for them is either childish or lazy.
This is demonstrably false. If Scripture does such a fine job of "interpreting itself", then why are there tens of thousands of different interpretations and denominations? Why do no two Christians agree on everything?
Quote:
Originally Posted by pneuma
Mike you deny Jesus Christ is the saviour of the world because of RCC traditions. As I said before an interpretation shows agreement with the scripture and not disagreement. Then I asked you to show me either yourself or via your church tradition your agreement with Jesus Christ being the saviour of the world.
You have failed to do this yet.
I do not deny that Jesus Christ is the Savior of the world. Of course He is. This, however, does not mean that every individual human ends up in heaven as you think it means.
It's a simple interpretive disagreement, and it's wrong of you to accuse me of denying Christ or of unbelief.
Surely you are familiar with the Scriptural defenses for the doctrine of eternal hell.
They've been re-hashed so many times in this thread. You want to re-hash them again?
Frankly, I find that exercise tedious and uninteresting. It will just amount to the same thing pneuma and I have been doing - us explaining to each other why a particular Scripture doesn't mean what the other poster thinks it means.
It is only illustrative of the fact that we need an Authority other than Scripture alone. Scripture alone simply does not work, because there are nearly as many possible interpretations for any given Scripture as there are human beings.
That is what you have been doing mike, I have been taking you to the original languages and showing you they do not teach eternal torment and you just keep saying RCC tradition says they do teach eternal torment. This whole thread has people encouraging others to look to the original languages and use the God given logic and reason we have been given.
It is not only scripture that tells us eternal torment is in error so to does logic and reason.
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.
Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
