Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
1. Why does the Master speak of two cleans animals?
2. Why not sheep and pigs? (one clean, one unclean)
3. Why compare pure/ chaste virgins rather then virgins and unchaste women?
WHY?
Parable of the Ten Virgins
Jesus presents 10 virgins (saved by the Blood of the Lamb) in which 5 no longer had oil in their lamps (they were no longer living in the Spirit). Oil on the scripture represents the Holy Spirit, somehow they had parted way with the Spirit and He was no longer there.
When the bridegroom came (the Second Coming of Christ) they were left behind, the 5 without the oil. They tried to get the oil but it was to late.
The parable is teaching "vs 13/ Watch therefore, for you know neither the day nor the hour the Son of Man cometh."
If you're not living in the Spirit when you leave this world or when Christ comes, you will not make it, plain and simple. Better be watching and better be ready!
Judgment on the Nations
The sheep and goats that Christ present have nothing to do with salvation, this is the judgement of the nations.
Those nations that helped the anti-christ are the goats, they did not help Israel in the time of need. the sheep are the nations that fought against the anti-christ to help Israel. We know from scripture that Jordan will be one of the natiions that take in and help Israel at this time.
First of all, it seems to me that the passage in view is the conclusion of a body of the sayings of Jesus, begun in ch. 24:3 when "the disciples came to Him privately." The CLNT, and rightly so, I think, puts this entire passage in quotes. Then ch. 26:1 indicates a break, or a change of context, with the words, "when Jesus finishes all these sayings."
Immediately prior to this Jesus had spoken words against the scribes and Pharisees in ch. 23, ending that discourse speaking of their undergoing the judging of Gehenna (vs. 33), and then speaking of Jerusalem as a whole (vs. 37-39) saying, "left is your house to you desolate." Note that here He spoke of many times wanting to assemble them "in the manner a hen is assembling her brood under her wings." That would have been an assembling for care and protection. But this was not to be.
Instead we see the prediction of the demolishing of the buildings of the sanctuary, which we all know happened in A.D. 70. Instead of an assembling as a brood, we see the prediction of their fleeing and taking flight (ch. 24:16-21). Did this not also occur? I am wondering if "the consummation" spoken of in 24:14 was speaking of "the end" of their system of worship, with the destruction of the sanctuary and of Jerusalem . By this time the evangel of the kingdom had been heralded in that whole inhabited area. But to press this point is not the intent of this letter.
From 24:23 to the end of the chapter Jesus gives various descriptions and characteristics regarding "the presence of the Son of Mankind." Vs. 31 speaks again of an assembling through the use of messengers with a trumpet (a figure of a "message"). This assembling is of His people.
In vs. 37-42 we see examples of the suddenness of His judgment. The chapter ends with an example of His coming "in an hour which you are not supposing" (vs. 44), and "on a day for which he is not hoping and in an hour which he knows not" (vs.50). I suggest that in all of these, He is referring to coming to His people. In the days of Noah there was not yet the distinction of "Jews and non-Jews." A few were righteous, most were unrighteous.
The point of this example is the suddenness, the unexpectedness, of His visitation in judgment.
The two in the field would not likely be the one a Jew, the other a Gentile. I suggest that these are both His people, but one suffers His judgment and is "taken" as were those who were taken by the deluge. The example of the "faithful and prudent slave," as compared to "that evil slave," is set within the same lord's house. Note that the slave who is cut asunder is appointed his part "with the hypocrites" -- the same term Jesus had just been applying to the scribes and Pharisees, who were still His people!
Now we come to ch. 25, and we see the same line of thinking continued.
Some were ready for the coming of the bridegroom, some were stupid and unprepared. But all were "virgins," all were part of the same society: His people.
Next He gives the example of "a man traveling," who "calls his own slaves" and gives money for them to work with, then he is returning "and settling accounts with them." The faithful slaves are rewarded, the "wicked and slothful slave" suffers loss and is cast into outer darkness where he laments and gnashes his teeth -- along with the hypocrites of ch. 24:51. What happened to him? He simply lost his job and was removed from his position in the household, or business. He was now homeless and jobless. But he is still a part of the same society, one of God's people.
Now we come to the wonderful (for I suggest that this is part of the "good news") passage in vs. 31-46.
Why should we suppose that all of a sudden Jesus has changed the format or the setting or the subject matter of this long discourse? I suggest that the problem lies in the translation of ta eqnh as "the nations." May I quote from Kittel's Theological Dictionary of the New Testament, Vol. II, p. 369: "'ethnos'" in the NT. 1. This word, which is common in Gk. from the very first, probably comes from 'ethos,' and means 'mass' or 'host' or 'multitude' bound by the same manners, customs or other distinctive features. Applied to men, it gives us the sense of people; but it can also be used of animals in the sense of 'herd' or of insects in the sense of 'swarm' .... In most cases 'ethnos' is used of men in the sense of 'a people'."
It seems to me that since Jesus is speaking in terms of sheep and kids, that the words "herds" or "multitudes" may be more appropriate for this passage. All along, up to this point in these sayings, He has been referring to His people, His household. A kid was a clean animal and could be used in a sacrifice. He was not severing the sheep from the dogs or the swine. I submit that this gathering is the same assembling spoken of in ch. 24:31. If you insist on the word being translated "nations," then I suggest a word of clarity be added and it read, "gathered [from] all the nations." This sense seems consistent to the entire passage.
Further, it would seem from the picture being drawn that since the "Shepherd" is severing one species from another, that it is evident that both up to this point have been a part of His herd.
Jesus is here using this figure to once again show that when He is coming He makes a distinction, such as between the wise and the stupid, or between the faithful and the useless. This is a time of reward, or the suffering of loss. The absence of believing as being an ingredient in this figure. All that is discussed is good works, or the absence thereof.
But let us look further, at the terms "sheep" and "brethren." In John 10:24-27 we see Jesus saying to the Jews (vs. 26), "But you are not believing, seeing that you are not My sheep, according as I said to you." These were Israelites, Jews, but they were not His sheep. Vs. 27 gives a designation of sheep, "My sheep are hearing My voice, and I know them, and they are following Me." Recall Matt. 25:12 where the bridegroom said to the stupid virgins, "I am not acquainted with you."
In a broad sense, Israel was figured as sheep (e.g. Ps. 100:3; Isa. 53:6; Jer. 50:6; etc.). However, we see Jesus making a distinction here in John 10:26, as He did between virgins and servants in Matt. 24 & 25. Perhaps this is what Paul was referring to in Rom. 11:7 where he said, "yet the chosen encountered it. Now the rest [of Israel ] were calloused ..." This would fall in line with Lu. 12:32 , "Do not fear, little flocklet, for it delights your Father to give you the kingdom." Matt. 13:11 gives further light, where Jesus says to the disciples, "To you has it been given to know the secrets of the kingdom of the heavens, yet to those [the ones who were not disciples] it has not been given."
In Lu. 8:21 Jesus makes this statement: "My mother and My brethren are these who are hearing the word of God and doing it." Paul refers to this same group when he speaks of those "who are called according to purpose, because whom He foreknew, He designates beforehand, also, to be conformed to the image of His Son, for Him to be Firstborn among many brethren." (Rom.8:28,29) Paul uses the term "brethren" throughout his letters to refer to those of the body of Christ. Thus, how you treat His "body" is how you treat Him.
To differentiate between the body of Christ and the Israelites in general, Paul inserts the qualifying phrase "my relatives according to the flesh" when he calls Israelites "brethren" in Rom. 9:3. In Rom. 10:1 Paul distinguishes between Israel, who he had just been talking about in the previous verses, and his brothers in Christ when he says, "Indeed, brethren, the delight of my heart and my petition to God for THEIR sake [or, "on behalf of them;" some later MSS read "on behalf of Israel"] is for salvation." Thus, to assume that the phrase "the least of My brethren" refers to the nation of Israel , in Matt. 25:40, is, I think, erroneous.
What is the difference between the sheep and the kids?
The sheep produced the fruit of the Spirit -- Love -- without ever taking note of it. They were not aware of this fruit. It was the automatic produce of the mature life of Christ that was within them. It was evident that they were disciples ("By this all shall be knowing that you are My disciples, if you should be having love for one another." John 13:35). Their good works were just a mature outflow of His life. Their reward was to "enjoy the allotment of the kingdom."
What of the kids?
They were just still "kids. There was no fruit of the Spirit in their lives. To change the metaphor, they just needed to be pruned to produce fruit. As you know, the word translated "chastening" in the CLNT is the noun "kolasis," from the verb "koladzo," which Thayer lists as, "1. prop. to lop, prune, as trees, wings. 2. to check, curb, restrain." Among the meanings Kittel lists are "to cut short," "to lop," "to trim." Consider the metaphor in John 15:1-2, "I am the true Grapevine, and My Father is the Farmer. Every branch in Me bringing forth no fruit, He is taking it away, and every one bringing forth fruit, He is cleansing it [with eonian fire?], that it may be bringing forth more fruit." Changing the metaphor again, let us look at Heb. 12:5-7, "My son, do not be neglecting (giving little care to) the Lord's discipline (education, child-training), neither be exhausted (dissolved) being continually convicted (exposed, reproved, put to the test) under Him, for whom the Lord is loving (continuously loves), He is continuously disciplining (child-training), and He is repeatedly scourging every son whom He is taking alongside with His hands (accepting, receiving). If you are remaining under discipline (child-training), God is continuously being brought (offered) toward you as sons. For what son exists whom a father is not disciplining?" (Mitchell version) So these kids are not ready to enjoy the allotment of the kingdom -- YET! But Christ is treating them as sons!
Returning to the metaphor of a branch being lopped off, we see in John 15:2 & 6 that "Every branch in Me bringing forth no fruit, He is taking away .... If anyone should not be remaining in Me, he is (or, was -- aor.) cast out as a branch, and is withered (or, it withered). And they are gathering them, and into the fire are they casting them, and they are being burned." This seems quite similar to the figure of the kids being sent from Him "into the fire eonian" in Matt. 25:41.
But let's look to Romans, where Paul uses the "branch" metaphor in ch. 11:17, "Now if some of the boughs are broken out ..." What happens to a bough when it is broken out of a tree? It withers, doesn't it? Is it true, then, that these too are being gathered into the fire and are being burned? Has this not happened, both literally and figuratively, to the Jews throughout history ever since? But the hope is found in vs. 23, "Now they also, if they should not be persisting in unbelief, will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again!" I suggest that this same principle applies to the kids that are pruned in Matt. 25:46. ~Jonathan Mitchell N.T.
This is that UR crap that beats the bush to death and answers nothing!
"And these will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.”
Now, Jesus said this! If there is an eternal punishment and eternal life, how does eternal mean a specified time and not into infinity?
Matthew 25:46
And, these shall go away into age-abiding correction, but the righteous into age-abiding life.
It should be noted that the Greek word for punishment (correction) used is kolasis.
And there is nothing in the meaning of aionios, which indicates any length of time.
Perhaps, you should study, Charlie, before getting in over your head.
This is one of the best rebuttals to ET I have read in a long time....maybe someone on the fence will be swayed. If someone is not bothered by ET they won't even read what you posted. Their minds are already made up. Imagine standing before God after they die and be asked....You really believed I was capable of damning 90% of all souls, the very people I made into a fire forever? What monster is capable of this yet this is who you told other people I was...a monster?? I never knew you and you never knew Me.
Nevertheless, if Universalism is true, He will also say, "Enter into the joy of thy Lord" to that very person!
I just finished showing you scripture that everyone will become a child of God, for every knee shall bow and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord to the glory of God the Father.
That is exactly what we are saying. Jesus Christ is the saviour of ALL MEN, first those that believe, which is speaking of the first fruits, which is the promises of the whole harvest. everyone will come in there own order, the firstfruits then the rest.
ET is based on ONE word and its adjective AION. are you sure you want to base the whole of scripture on ONE word? AION and its adjective are NOT referring to eternal, that which is without end.
You teach eternal torment at the expense of God and Jesus making them sinners for missing the mark of the salvation of the whole world.
yup and like I said every knee etc.
So it was the terror of eternal torment that caused you to repent, do you only serve God as some type of fire insurance? We are to serve Him because of LOVE not because we are terrified.
so are you saying that if all are saved you would go back to your old life of sin?
I guess you just answered my question. You do not serve God because you love him, you serve Him because you are terrified of being eternally tormented if you don't.
there is a big difference between the reverential awe of God and being terrified of Him.
So Matthew 25:46 is speaking of age-abiding torments as punishment.
Does John 3:16 merely speak of age-abiding life?
I'm sorry but I will not give up the idea that God offers to us through Jesus everlasting life.
So Matthew 25:46 is speaking of age-abiding torments as punishment.
Does John 3:16 merely speak of age-abiding life?
I'm sorry but I will not give up the idea that God offers to us through Jesus everlasting life.
And the word is not aion, there, but aionios.
We have had this discussion before, nowhere is eternal (aidios) used, other than that which relates to God himself.
Remember, Jude 6-7, the fire is for an age, while the word eternal (aidios) relates to his power and divine nature?
There are few that overcome eternal damnation; and walk the narrow path.
Quote:
Originally Posted by justbyfaith
So, only those who believe that all will be saved, will be saved?
That's not what I said, few overcome the false teaching and walk the narrow path in this life.
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.
Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
This is one of the best rebuttals to ET I have read in a long time....maybe someone on the fence will be swayed. If someone is not bothered by ET they won't even read what you posted. Their minds are already made up. Imagine standing before God after they die and be asked....You really believed I was capable of damning 90% of all souls, the very people I made into a fire forever? What monster is capable of this yet this is who you told other people I was...a monster?? I never knew you and you never knew Me. 
