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The bold is your grievous error! The truth is He has given the anointing and the unction of the Holy Spirit to everyone who believes Jesus and accepts JESUS CHRIST as the Word of God NOT the Bible!!! It amazes me how capable we humans are of getting things completely twisted and convoluted.
What amazes me Mystic, is that you have the audacity to think you can determine what is correct in scripture and what is not and still call yourself a believer!
I can't find it within myself to agree with you on many things knowing you have rejected from scripture what you have deemed incorrect and not worthy of believing.
This is the attitude toward scripture that the righteous must reject, we must stand firm and hold those such as yourself accountable for the error of your ways!
I don't care what you think or what you say, what you are doing is wrong, and I'm not ashamed to say it.
“And they shall not teach every man his neighbor, and every man his brother, saying know the Lord: for all shall know Me from the least to the greatest.” Heb. 8:11.
To know the Lord “is everlasting life”.
All from the least to the greatest are to know the Lord, consequently all will finally enjoy everlasting life.
“We which have believed do enter into rest.” Heb. 4:3.
The apostle Peter writes, “You rejoice with joy unspeakable and full of glory.” I Peter 1:8.
If those ancient saints had believed in the endless damnation of a portion of mankind for whom Christ died, would they have enjoyed rest in that belief?
Would it have caused joy unspeakable, and filled them with glory?
All who really believe in endless torments can testify that faith in it produces nothing but doubt, despair and horror.
The whole creation is to be delivered.
“The creature itself also shall be delivered from the bondage of corruption, into the glorious liberty of the children of God.” Rom. 8:21.
Every human creature, the radical all mankind.
Every human creature was made subject to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of Him who has subjected the same in hope; because every human creature shall be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the sons of God.
Every creature experiencing universal deliverance from the imperfections of earth: EVERY
“Being born anew, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which lives and abides forever.” 1 Peter 1;23. “Having been regenerated (begotten again) -not from corruptible, but from incorruptible Seed through the living and indwelling Word of God.” -Diaglott 1 Peter 1;23.
For you have a new life. It was not passed unto you from your parents, for the life they gave you will fade away. This new one will live forever, for it comes from Christ, God’s ever-living message to men.
Yes, our natural life will fade as does the grass when it becomes all brown and dry. All our greatness is like a flower that droops and falls; but the Word of the Lord will last forever, and His massage is the good newsthat was preached to you.” 1 Peter 1;23-25 -The Living Bible.
I cannot say it any plainer than this: “In Adam all are dying.” 1 Cor.15; 22. LCNT.
All Adam can do is bring forth death. Death is in his seed. It is corruptible seed having no eternal life. Death is in a baby at conception. David said: “In sin did my mother conceive me.” He was not slurring or degrading his mother; he was explaining the imperfection of the male sperm and the female ovum—both contain sin and death. All of us were born into this natural death realm in our own order. There is only one way out! “In Christ ALL are being made alive.” 1 Cor.15;22.
This is also a process, each in their own order. He same “ALL” that are dying is the same “ALL” that are being made alive in Christ. This is a gift of God which no man can earn. No man can sacrifice for it—or even believe for it. Faith is a gift of God! Eternal life is a gift of God! It is a quality of life that only Christ obtained through His death and resurrection. Everlasting means age lasting or life for the ages. “He is the Lord eternal, invisible, immortal, the only wise God, be honor and glory forever & ever—the ages of ages, Amen.” 1 Tim.1; 17. LCNT.
He is our rock!
A rock is a natural thing and lasts only for a time. It is one of the most enduring things we know about our environment here on earth. We read of the “everlasting hills” and every one will be leveled and made smooth. These are all metaphors meaning strength and endurance. Christ is our strength, giving us inner strength and power to endure. We can depend on him in this natural life. He will never leave or forsake us in our time of need in this old creation dying body. He is the incorruptible, immortal, deathless seed within us by which we are being born again into the new creation man.
What amazes me Mystic, is that you have the audacity to think you can determine what is correct in scripture and what is not and still call yourself a believer!
I can't find it within myself to agree with you on many things knowing you have rejected from scripture what you have deemed incorrect and not worthy of believing.
This is the attitude toward scripture that the righteous must reject, we must stand firm and hold those such as yourself accountable for the error of your ways!
I don't care what you think or what you say, what you are doing is wrong, and I'm not ashamed to say it.
ok, lets look at what he said versus how he said it.
Those that focus on love, compassion, understanding, and forgiveness are in Christ.
those that believe the only way to salvation is Jesus and that can only be obtained through the bible.
“And they shall not teach every man his neighbor, and every man his brother, saying know the Lord: for all shall know Me from the least to the greatest.” Heb. 8:11.
To know the Lord “is everlasting life”.
All from the least to the greatest are to know the Lord, consequently all will finally enjoy everlasting life.
“We which have believed do enter into rest.” Heb. 4:3.
The apostle Peter writes, “You rejoice with joy unspeakable and full of glory.” I Peter 1:8.
If those ancient saints had believed in the endless damnation of a portion of mankind for whom Christ died, would they have enjoyed rest in that belief?
Would it have caused joy unspeakable, and filled them with glory?
All who really believe in endless torments can testify that faith in it produces nothing but doubt, despair and horror.
The whole creation is to be delivered.
“The creature itself also shall be delivered from the bondage of corruption, into the glorious liberty of the children of God.” Rom. 8:21.
Every human creature, the radical all mankind.
Every human creature was made subject to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of Him who has subjected the same in hope; because every human creature shall be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the sons of God.
Every creature experiencing universal deliverance from the imperfections of earth: EVERY
I have some problems with the verses you have presented here, Rose. This is a total misrepresentation of what is said.
In Heb. 8 you would have us to believe that all are saved and will know the Lord. This assumption comes from the ignorance of scripture, not knowing what is being said. Of course this is the UR way, taking advantage of those who don't know the scripture.
But don't worry, Charlie is here to explain it in truth, as it was meant to be taken.
The book of Hebrews is adressed to the Hebrews, the Jews. Therefore while it is meant for all, it is addressed directly to the Jews.
We see in Heb. 8 that you are not being honest with us, Rose! Of course you are so deep in the lies of the UR that you yourself probably don't know what you are doing, you don't know what this scripture is referring to.
Being that Paul is speaking to the Jews, and telling us that the day is coming that they will be in covenant with God, they, the Jews will in Heb. 8:11,
"And they shall not teach every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for all shall know me, from the least to the greatest."
The Jews do not now know Christ, but the day is coming when they will. Paul also tells us that all Israel shall be saved.
Rom. 11:26-27
"And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:
"For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins."
You see, Rose, what Paul is speaking of in Romans is the same as what he is speaking in Hebrew 8:10,
"For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people:"
The covenant that Paul is speaking of is when the Jews come to faith in Christ. You are leading us to believe this covenant is universal, but it is NOT.
I suggest Rose, that you in the future learn what you are talking about before you try to teach others what you yourself haven't a clue of understanding!
What amazes me Mystic, is that you have the audacity to think you can determine what is correct in scripture and what is not and still call yourself a believer!
I can't find it within myself to agree with you on many things knowing you have rejected from scripture what you have deemed incorrect and not worthy of believing.
This is the attitude toward scripture that the righteous must reject, we must stand firm and hold those such as yourself accountable for the error of your ways!
I don't care what you think or what you say, what you are doing is wrong, and I'm not ashamed to say it.
What amazes me is that you are so indoctrinated to the Bible as he word of God you REJECT Jesus as the Word of God. Jesus is SPECIFICALLY called the Word of God, the Bible is NOT!!! You keep complaining that I determine what is correct and what is not, but it is JESUS who determines that by His descriptions and unambiguous demonstration of God's Holy Spirit of agape love, Charlie. Why you ignore that in favor of your man-made belief that the Bible is the word of God astounds me!
You are depending on the flaws and fallacies of men instead of the Holy Spirit of Jesus Christ! You are forgiven for it, but you will have a price to pay for those you have led astray to fear our loving Father. How you can know about the agape love of Jesus and still harbor our ignorant ancestors' barbaric beliefs about God escapes me.
"And these will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.”
Now, Jesus said this! If there is an eternal punishment and eternal life, how does eternal mean a specified time and not into infinity?
Quote:
Originally Posted by justbyfaith
So Matthew 25:46 is speaking of age-abiding torments as punishment.
Does John 3:16 merely speak of age-abiding life?
I'm sorry but I will not give up the idea that God offers to us through Jesus everlasting life.
And the word is not aion, there, but aionios.
Yes and aionios is the adjective that I referred to. Aion and its adjective do not refer to eternal.The adjective aionios is use to modify or describe the noun aion which simply means age. that is why literal translations of the bible say age during or age abiding.
Our life in Christ is MUCH MORE then aionios life
Many of God people believe aionios life is the fullness of life in Christ, and because of this error they have a hard time answering the eternal punishment and eternal life scriptures.
They will state such things as aionios can mean something different within one sentence, and it subject determines the fullness or lack thereof of the meaning.
But we need not change the meaning of aionios in such a fashion to understand Gods eternal (as in without beginning and without end) being. For there are other words in scripture to show forth Gods eternal (as in without beginning and without end) being.
Before I show how God is eternal in the sense of without beginning and without end lets look at a few more scriptures that will help the reader understand aionios only means age-lasting and is of limited duration.
The Hebrew word for aionios is olam, so lets look at a few scriptures from the old testament.
Habakkuk 3:6
6 He stood, and measured the earth: he beheld, and drove asunder the nations; and the everlasting mountains were scattered, the perpetual hills did bow: his ways are everlasting.
The reader can see here that both the hills and Gods ways are everlasting. So if olam or aionios in the Greek means without beginning and without end then the hills had no beginning and will have no end, but we know that the hills have a beginning and we no that they have an end because they bow down.
Now the only way for those who believe olam means eternal can get around this is to say olam means one thing in the first part of the sentence and means something else in the second part of the sentence.
Psalm 41:13
13 Blessed be the LORD God of Israel from everlasting, and to everlasting. Amen, and Amen.
Psalm 90:1-2
1 Lord, thou hast been our dwelling place in all generations. 2 Before the mountains were brought forth, or ever thou hadst formed the earth and the world, even from everlasting to everlasting, thou art God.
Here the reader can see God is from olam/aionios to olam/aionios.
If olam/aionios means without beginning and without end then these scripture makes absolutely no sense, for can there be more then ONE eternity? Hardly, so the reader cans see olam/aionios is used in the limited sense of age-lasting.
So the reader can see olam/aionios means age-lasting and is always used in a limited sense.
But some will say if it is always used in a limited sense then that would mean aionios life is also limited in duration. This is CORRECT, aionios life is of limited duration.
I already know many will say that’s blaspheme, but bare with me for a few more moments if you will.
Lets go back to Ps.90 for a moment and read it again.
Psalm 90:1-2
1 Lord, thou hast been our dwelling place in all generations. 2 Before the mountains were brought forth, or ever thou hadst formed the earth and the world, even from everlasting to everlasting, thou art God.
We have already seen olam/aionios is of limited duration, but what else does this scripture tell us? It tells us that the LIFE of God is GREATER then that of olam/aionios, for God is FROM olam/aionios TO olam/aionios.
The Life of God and of Christ is not just olam/aionios but their LIFE is MORE then that, yea MUCH MORE. Their LIFE exceeds the olam/aionios life just as a week exceeds a day, a month exceeds a week and a year exceeds a month, so to does the LIFE of God in Christ exceed olam/aionios LIFE.
The error both camps fall into is the belief that aionios life is all the life there is in God and Christ. But as the reader just read God is FROM olam/aionios TO olam/aionios, thus is it not then clear that we to in Christ are given a LIFE far greater then just olam/aionios LIFE.
Lets read in Hebrew and you will see Christ life (and therefore ours) exceeds that of olam/aionios life.
Hebrews 7:16
16 Who is made, not after the law of a carnal commandment, but after the power of an endless life.
Akatalutos-Endless: indissoluble, not subject to destruction
From the root of A or Alpha: Christ is the Alpha to indicate that he is the beginning and the end
Now as Akatalutos-Endless clearly shows that of a life without end, why did not the writers of the scriptures use Akatalutos concerning punishment and life instead of olam/aionios? Is it not because olam/aionios is of limited duration?
What we receive in Christ is a AKATALUTOS/ENDLESS LIFE, a life that spans EVERY olam/aionios age-lasting life. Just as Gods life is FROM olam/aionios TO olam/aionios so to is ours in Christ.
Lets read in Pet. To further see this life we are to inherit that is MUCH MORE then olam/aionios life.
1 Peter 1:3-4
3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which according to his abundant mercy hath begotten us again unto a lively hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, 4 To an inheritance incorruptible, and undefiled, and that fadeth not away, reserved in heaven for you,
Aphthartos-incorruptible: uncorrupted, not liable to corruption or decay, imperishable
Again From the root of A or Alpha: Christ is the Alpha to indicate that he is the beginning and the end
Amarantos-fadeth not away: not fading away, unfading, perennial
Again From the root of A or Alpha: Christ is the Alpha to indicate that he is the beginning and the end
Can not the reader see here just how much more grand our life is in Christ then just olam/aionios age-abiding life?
These are just a few examples of how MUCH MORE our life in Christ is then olam/aionios life.
If punishment was to be eternal in the sense of without beginning and without end surely the Holy Spirit would have use one of the words expressed above to show this, but NEVER is any of these words that express endlessness EVER used in the punishments of God.
Praise God there is MUCH MORE to life in Christ then just that of olam/aionios life, and it is because so many of God people do not realise this that they fall into the error of changing the meaning of words within the same sentence.
Brothers and sister there is absolutely no need to do this if one can but see the life we have in Christ is MUCH MORE then olam/aionios life.
Even FROM everlasting TO everlasting, thou art God.
So, you were making your statement apart from its source in Matthew 7:13-14...
Mat 7:13, Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat:
Mat 7:14, Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.
Apparently you think that the destruction that Jesus is speaking of is only temporal.
Well, we know this much...at the very least it applies to the sinner for an entire age...
I think that, in that, we are talking more than a millennium.
To get a clear picture of who the people are who God says I never knew you we need to look at both set of scriptures concerning this point.
Matthew 7:13-23
13 Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat: 14 Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.
15 Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep’s clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves. 16 Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles? 17 Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit. 18 A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit. 19 Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire. 20 Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them.
21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven. 22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? 23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.
Luke 13:23-30
23 Then said one unto him, Lord, are there few that be saved? And he said unto them, 24 Strive to enter in at the strait gate: for many, I say unto you, will seek to enter in, and shall not be able. 25 When once the master of the house is risen up, and hath shut to the door, and ye begin to stand without, and to knock at the door, saying, Lord, Lord, open unto us; and he shall answer and say unto you, I know you not whence ye are: 26 Then shall ye begin to say, We have eaten and drunk in thy presence, and thou hast taught in our streets. 27 But he shall say, I tell you, I know you not whence ye are; depart from me, all ye workers of iniquity. 28 There shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth, when ye shall see Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob, and all the prophets, in the kingdom of God, and you yourselves thrust out. 29 And they shall come from the east, and from the west, and from the north, and from the south, and shall sit down in the kingdom of God. 30 And, behold, there are last which shall be first, and there are first which shall be last.
So who are these people that God says I never knew you to? And what two gates are being spoken of?
Let's look at who these people are first, then the gate that is being spoken of.
What do these scriptures tell us about the people God says I never knew you to?
Do not the scriptures tell us that these people SEEK to enter in? Do not these scriptures tell us that they have eaten in His presence and that God has taught in their streets. Do not these scriptures tell us that they have prophesied in His name, cast out devils in His name and done many wonderful works in His name?
So who are these people? Those who believe in eternal torment or annihilation would have us believe that these people are unbelievers. However can this be correct? Can one who has not known God SEEK to enter in, can one who knows not God cast out devils and do many wonderful works in His name? Look at what happened to the sons of Sceva when they tried to cast out devil in Jesus name. Is it not obvious that those who know not Jesus CANNOT cast out devils.
So again I ask who are these people.
These people are Christians, for only Christians SEEK to enter in, only Christians can cast out devils and do many wonderful works in His name.
Read Revelation chapter 2 and 3 and you will see just who these Christians are.
They are those who have not overcome and must therefore have their part in the second death.
Now I know those who believe in eternal torment and annihilation say that what these Revelation scriptures are saying is that their are some people in the churches that are not really believers in Jesus and these scriptures are talking about them. However who are these scriptures addressed to? Are they not addressed to the ANGEL/MESSENGER of each church? And unless these messengers of the churches overcome they to will have their part in the second death.
So we can see that the people God said I never knew you are referring to Christians who have not overcome.
So why would God say to Christians that I never knew you?
To understand why God would say I never knew you to Christians one need to understand who the overcomers are. Those who overcome are the many membered body of Christ. I am not going to go into detail about this many membered body of Christ here, but for those interested read this link (below) where I do go into some detail about this body.
So let's look at some more scripture as to why God would say to Christians that have not overcome I never knew you.
Isaiah 42:5-8
5 Thus saith God the LORD, he that created the heavens, and stretched them out; he that spread forth the earth, and that which cometh out of it; he that giveth breath unto the people upon it, and spirit to them that walk therein: 6 I the LORD have called thee in righteousness, and will hold thine hand, and will keep thee, and give thee for a covenant of the people, for a light of the Gentiles; 7 To open the blind eyes, to bring out the prisoners from the prison, and them that sit in darkness out of the prison house. 8 I am the LORD: that is my name: and my glory will I not give to another, neither my praise to graven images.
Now most people use this scripture to back up the belief in the trinity, but there is no trinity being spoken of here. What these scriptures are pointing out is that God will not give His glory to any other then the one who is a light to the gentiles, the one who opens blind eyes, and brings prisoners out of the prison houses.
What these scriptures point out to us is that God will not give His glory unto any other then Christ, and Christ is a many membered body, an overcoming body.
So why does God say to Christians who have not overcome I never knew you?
Because God will not give His glory to any other but to Christ alone. God cannot recognise anyone other than Christ. God cannot recognise anyone whose old man is still alive and active. So unless Christians wake up and become a member of the body of Christ/overcome you will hear God say to you, sorry I never knew you.
Also of note is that God promised Abraham that his seed would be as the stars of heaven and as the sand of the sea shore. So unless God has revoked this promise to Abraham how is it that only a few are saved?
So now let's look at the two gates.
Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat: 14 Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.
I don't think anyone would argue the point that these scriptures are talking about the kingdom of heaven so let's put that into the scripture for clarification.
Enter ye into the kingdom of heaven at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which enter into the kingdom of heaven thereat.
Now look again what it says in Revelation.
Revelation 22:14
14 Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.
Who is it that is without the gates of the city?
Who is it that has right to the tree of life?
15 For without are dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie.
Now remember what the scripture says, that only those who do the will of the Father can enter into the kingdom of heaven.
Read Revelation 22:14 again
Revelation 22:14
14 Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.
Once those who are without the gate learn to do His commandments or the will of the Father they have right to the tree of life and can enter in through the gates into the city.
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