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No one is arguing against equality. But I see the tactic you're using. You are attempting to rebrand the argument to be about equality. Why do you have to distract? It's a strawman argument. Why not actually argue the same thing I'm arguing?
You're the one that said your rights are being trampled. Since we're talking about Christianity and the LGBT community, I assumed you were talking about your church and it's desire to treat LGBT people differently from the way they treat you.
If a gay couple walks into your church on Sunday morning, do you give them a little smile and say "Hello" or do you shake hands and tell them your family sits on the 3rd pew to the left and invite them to come sit with you and invite them to the social hall for coffee after the service? In other words, are the simply tolerated, or are they welcomed as potential new members? You don't really have to answer. I wouldn't want to put you o the spot.
If God created us in his image and knitted up together in our mother's womb than it stands to reason, for a Christian, that whether or not you like the fact that homosexuals exist, you are obligated by the Lord to love them as they are and to hold your arms open and invite them in, for they are as the Lord made them.
There is nothing in the Bible that states that God created sinners the way they are and intends for them to stay that way for life. And that standard applies to all sinners. Even the ones you may think we Christians like.
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Noone wakes up and says life would be so much easier if I was gay. They are the way they are. You can dislike the "sin" but you must love the sinner. And on that token, if God created man in his image and gave him the thought and will to be a homosexual then homosexual sin in and of itself is not actually a sin, as long as it is sex within the confines of marriage. Promiscuous sex no matter who its with is sinful. But sex within the loving relationship you have with your partner is not only not a sin but it is glorifying to God.
That is an assumption. It is not based on any Scripture.
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However, even if a Christian adheres to the belief that homosexuality is a sin, they have no right to treat the sinner abhorrently as God is a loving God and he is the judge. You are not to judge others for that is not your place. Doing things that are deliberately hurtful to others is a sin. Punishing someone for their perceived sins is playing God. Committing a sin in order to punish someone else's sin is not acceptable.
No one is arguing for mistreatment of anyone, except perhaps those that continue to lie about what I believe and what Christians believe. No one is suggesting we mistreat homosexuals.
In what way what? They've been discriminated against? You can google as well as I can to see legislation that is being proposed on their behalf. My main point was things were NOT working pretty well the way they were.
You're the one that said your rights are being trampled. Since we're talking about Christianity and the LGBT community, I assumed you were talking about your church and it's desire to treat LGBT people differently from the way they treat you.
From my experience here, that would mean in a loving, caring way. Because Christians are certainly not treated well by homosexuals, at least on this forum.
But no, no one is arguing to be able to discriminate or for prejudice against homosexuals. Please stop assigning motive to me.
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If a gay couple walks into your church on Sunday morning, do you give them a little smile and say "Hello" or do you shake hands and tell them your family sits on the 3rd pew to the left and invite them to come sit with you and invite them to the social hall for coffee after the service?
Yes. Wouldn't you? Or do you assume my motive and assign prejudice to me wrongly?
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In other words, are the simply tolerated, or are they welcomed as potential new members? You don't really have to answer. I wouldn't want to put you o the spot.
Membership is a different thing than attending. Perhaps that's the issue. I'd be curious to see why you believe one might join a church?
What part of "I'm not suggesting we regress to any previous laws" do you not comprehend?" You seem to have an issue in understanding that I'm not suggesting we go back to 1860. No one is. No one is advocating discrimination. The only ones that are expressing prejudice is you and a few others that have badmouthed religious people.
So what are you suggesting, exactly? That "change for the sake of change" isn't good? Who said it was? The changes weren't just for the heck of it, they were to protect people who had historically been treated poorly by the likes of you. I never said anything about going back to 1860 either, did I? For someone claiming I don't understand what they said, you surely don't understand what I said. The other part I responded to was..
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Originally Posted by BaptistFundie
When you take a system that works pretty well and change it just to change it and trample the rights of others in the process, that's an issue.
Which you didn't answer.... What rights get trampled when LGBT people are treated like everyone else? Name them for us. Also, again, works well for who? And if this isn't saying you want things to go back to how they were, what did you mean exactly? It comes off as you believing that the system was working well, and shouldn't have been changed. If you think it is CURRENTLY working well and shouldn't be changed, then why are you complaining about gay rights and rights being trampled? I'm not trying to be rude here, BF, I am just trying to understand.
I missed this tidbit earlier... Is it nice to refuse service to a gay person or couple because you don't like who they have relations with? If you want us to be nice to you and other fundamentalists, may I suggest you guys start being nice to those who don't believe as you do or behave exactly how you prefer they do so?
From my experience here, that would mean in a loving, caring way. Because Christians are certainly not treated well by homosexuals, at least on this forum.
But no, no one is arguing to be able to discriminate or for prejudice against homosexuals. Please stop assigning motive to me.
Yes. Wouldn't you? Or do you assume my motive and assign prejudice to me wrongly?
Membership is a different thing than attending. Perhaps that's the issue. I'd be curious to see why you believe one might join a church?
That may vary from church to church. Earlier in the thread you mentioned that potential new members in your church are asked certain questions before being allowed to be a member. It implies that they must have some correct answers before they can be considered a member.
That's not the case in all churches. It is certainly not in mine. There's no membership requirement.
(There IS the formal, traditional Episcopal confirmation process if one chooses to partake in it, but a person could attend forever and not be confirmed if they didn't want to and still be a member of that parish.)
Just pointing that out because it might cause confusion. Your church has specific criteria for membership.
So, here's the question. If an LGBT person who is "out" but celibate asked to be a member of your church, would they be able to? (I am assuming that the answer is a definite NO if they are married or in a committed relationship.)
There is nothing in the Bible that states that God created sinners the way they are and intends for them to stay that way for life. And that standard applies to all sinners. Even the ones you may think we Christians like.
That is an assumption. It is not based on any Scripture.
No one is arguing for mistreatment of anyone, except perhaps those that continue to lie about what I believe and what Christians believe. No one is suggesting we mistreat homosexuals.
You seem to be taking what I said like a personal attack on you. It was not. It wasnt even in response to you. It was my opinion and belief.
1 Peter 4:8: "Above all, love each other deeply, because love covers over a multitude of sins."
John 15:12: "My command is this: Love each other as I have loved you."
You seem to be taking what I said like a personal attack on you. It was not. It wasnt even in response to you. It was my opinion and belief.
Nope. You've not been out of line with me. That wasn't my intent.
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1 Peter 4:8: "Above all, love each other deeply, because love covers over a multitude of sins."
John 15:12: "My command is this: Love each other as I have loved you."
Yes. We should love. I absolutely agree.
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