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Now hold on. I don't agree with Universalism, but holding that belief doesn't automatically mean that one isn't saved. If a person believes that Jesus died for their sins, and that he rose again, that person has been saved regardless of any errant views he may hold regarding other matters. Believing that all men will be saved is not Biblical, but believing it doesn't mean that you are going to hell.
And with that, I take my leave of this thread. Besides, there is too much talk of Universalsim on this thread. There is a thread that has been reserved for that subject and the subject is not supposed to be discussed outside of that thread.
I have read other threads from this poster and others with similar beliefs and the only commonality of Their god and God of the Bible are words like ‘Jesus’ and ‘God the Father’. That is where the similarity ends. The poster has reference that they disagree with biblical ideology and I concur that there is a major difference. if we are truly talking about Christianity... the religion the poster’s beliefs and the Christian Bible cannot both be true.
As I stated before, I don’t get to proclaim who gets to heaven or hell as this rests with God. BtGod is very direct and concrete on who is saved and who is damned. In order to garner salvation from the Lord you must place your faith in Jesus and repent of your sins. Jesus as in Jesus in the Bible and not a made up god which is a serious offense in the eyes of the Lord.
Sorry I don't follow your religion. I believe in Truth and Jesus promised to save me and other like minded from everlasting torment. Unfortunately, He made no promises to you and your follows. He has made some serious threats against you though. I would take it with extreme caution and seriousness
Dear KJoe: My "religion"=
1. Jesus Christ is 100% successful as Saviour.
2. Jesus Christ loses NOTHING, not leftover pieces of bread and fish, and not any fallen sons of Adam1.
3. Jesus Christ equalizes the same mass "made sinners" into the identical mass "made righteous".
4. All death is swallowed in victory.
5. Every knee bows in absolute union IN/EN the Names of all names in every dimension of heaven, earth, and underworld.
6. Creation longs for deliverance, it shall be delivered!
7. All/pas radically means all.
8. In Adam 1 ALL die, in the Last Adam all shall live.
9. The last enemy, death, has a limited future. It shall be NO more!
10. God is the Source, Guide, Goal of the all/ the ta panta.
Our God, the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, has not cursed His creation, and is in fact the Saviour of all that has been broken and bent by one man's sin. The day of hurts will be adequately met by the One who declares>>>
The WHOLE of created life shall be delivered/set free/ emancipated from the tyranny of change and decay
Yes KJoe, the whole radical all will be delivered!
Not a few choice few, not some, the whole radical ALL, shall be delivered!
Sorry I don't follow your religion. I believe in Truth and Jesus promised to save me and other like minded from everlasting torment. Unfortunately, He made no promises to you and your followers. He has made some warnings against you though. I would take it with extreme caution and seriousness
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike555
Now hold on. I don't agree with Universalism, but holding that belief doesn't automatically mean that one isn't saved. If a person believes that Jesus died for their sins, and that he rose again, that person has been saved regardless of any errant views he may hold regarding other matters. Believing that all men will be saved is not Biblical, but believing it doesn't mean that you are going to hell.
And with that, I take my leave of this thread. Besides, there is too much talk of Universalsim on this thread. There is a thread that has been reserved for that subject and the subject is not supposed to be discussed outside of that thread.
Quote:
Originally Posted by KJoe11
I have read other threads from this poster and others with similar beliefs and the only commonality of Their god and God of the Bible are words like ‘Jesus’ and ‘God the Father’. That is where the similarity ends. The poster has reference that they disagree with biblical ideology and I concur that there is a major difference. if we are truly talking about Christianity... the religion the poster’s beliefs and the Christian Bible cannot both be true.
As I stated before, I don’t get to proclaim who gets to heaven or hell as this rests with God. BtGod is very direct and concrete on who is saved and who is damned. In order to garner salvation from the Lord you must place your faith in Jesus and repent of your sins. Jesus as in Jesus in the Bible and not a made up god which is a serious offense in the eyes of the Lord.
What you don't like is the idea of all humanity coming to the knowledge of the truth that hell and eternal damnation are false theologies, created by men to scare little children. Isn't it time you searched for the real truth?
The Jehovah's Witnesses teach annihilationism, not the Bible. As shown in post #28, the Greek word apolummi need not be taken as 'ceasing to exist.' Those who go into the lake of fire or Gehenna go in both body and soul as the final judgment of the great white throne takes place after everyone, including unbelievers have been resurrected. As Daniel 12:2 shows, some are resurrected to eternal life and some are resurrected to disgrace and everlasting contempt.
There are more people that are realizing hell has little support in the Bible so it's not limited to Jehovahs Witnesses.
Here's an article from a secular website which I have posted.
Some erroneously believe Scripture supports the idea of hell fire. Let's look at Mark 9:47,48:
"And if thine eye offend thee, pluck it out: it is better for thee to enter into the kingdom of God with one eye, than having two eyes to be cast into hell fire: Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched."-KJV
Notice however this commentary on Mark 9:47,48 from a NON JW publication:
From the Catholic publication El evangelio de Marcos. Análisis lingüístico y comentario exegético, Volume II: “[The] phrase is taken from Isaiah (66,24). There the prophet shows the two ways corpses were usually destroyed: putrefaction and incineration . . . The juxtaposition in the text of maggots and fire reinforces the idea of destruction. . . . Both destructive forces are described as permanent (‘is not quenched, does not die’): there is simply no way to escape them. In this image, the only survivors are the maggot and the fire—not man—and they both annihilate anything that falls within their power. Hence, this is not a description of everlasting torment, but one of total destruction which, as it prevents resurrection from occurring, is tantamount to final death. [Fire] is, then, a symbol of annihilation.”
You use the English word 'hell.' The New Testament uses the terms, hades, Tartarus (once), the lake of fire, and Gehenna. With regard to Tartarus (2 Peter 2:4) both Peter and Jude state that the angels (the sons of God in Genesis 6:2-4) are being held in pits of darkness (Peter), under darkness (Jude 6) for judgment. Tartarus is a temporary place of confinement where the angels who took part in the Genesis 6:4 affair are being held for final judgment at which time they will be sent to the lake of fire.
There was no year zero. The calendar goes from 1 BC to AD 1 . The New Testament which was written in the first century speaks of a place of punishment in terms of fire as does 1 Enoch which was written between the 3rd and 1st centuries BC.
I agree, and have stated a number of times that the lake of fire in the New Testament may not mean literal fire, since it is also called the outer darkness.
As Daniel 12:2 says,
Daniel 12:2 "Many of those who sleep in the dust of the ground will awake, these to everlasting life, but the others to disgrace and everlasting contempt.
The same word - olam, is used for those who are resurrected to eternal life and for those who are resurrected to disgrace and everlasting contempt. The same duration has to apply to both as it does in Matthew 25:46. If eternal life is of unending duration then so is the duration of those who are resurrected to disgrace and contempt.
As for annihilationism, as I have shown, the beast and the false prophet even after being in the lake of fire for one thousand years are still in existence. They have not ceased to exist.
But those who believe in Universal salvation or in Annihilationism won't listen to reason, don't care what the Bible actually says, and can't seem to think straight, which makes it a waste of time getting into a discussion on the matter.
You have to read Revelations carefully, the devil, the beast and the false prophet are thrown alive in the lake of fire where they are tormented for ages of ages (whatever that means). The lake of fire when spoken of normal men is refered to as second death, it doesn't say that normal men are tormented in the lake of fire, which makes sense since humans perish in fire while angelic beings do not - one might argue though whether the false prophet is rather a human or a demonic entity.
Matthew 25:46 has been addressed a couple of times in this forum, your argumentation is the same as churchfather's Augustine.
Quote:
Originally Posted by KJoe11 View Post
The surgeon represents thousands of biblical experts and theologians throughout the centuries uncovering the facts which directly contradicts nearly everyone on this board. The plumber is nothing more than ignorance in the study of hermeneutics.
I am not going to lie. Many here are most likely will end up in hell and in eternal torment. That is a guess as only the Lord has this decision. But we can read His Word and understand His decrees.
Originally Posted by kmom2 View Post
The reason hell is such a dangerous doctrine is because we become exactly like the God we worship (this is another thread on the Religion discussion as well). If we worship a God who tortures people endlessly for finite transgressions, that has a way of changing who we are in a very ugly way. If we worship a God who is love, who forgives seventy times seven and then some, who doesn't leave us or abandon us no matter where we go, who loves enemies, who tells us not to judge, who is the perfect love that casts out fear...then that weaves its way into who we are and how we act.
And you cannot just "read his word and understand his decrees." First of all, his "word" is the living Christ, not a book, and reading and understanding requires interpretation, which is always through a veil of psychological projection, cultural influences, personal biases, IQ, and God knows what else, so it's never that easy. Thousands of biblical experts and theologians throughout the centuries have been wrong too many times to list.
A person can be literate yet Bible illiterate
Many people know enough about the Bible to be a danger.
More people should actually read it and try to understand it so that one would not be persuaded in believing doctrines that were not fundamentally held by the earliest of Christians. People could also more easily reject being mislead by others because the Bible is misused, misquoted and scriptures cherry picked.
The first Christians=Jewish converts. They could understand the Bible's message which is essentially one of a break up but reconciliation by a God who tries his best to gather his children to him. And they did it without the benefit of the modern era we live in when we have info literally at our fingertips. It almost seems that some have the thinking that it's not worth delving into it and that is a shame.
"If we worship a God who tortures people endlessly for finite transgressions, that has a way of changing who we are in a very ugly way. If we worship a God who is love, who forgives seventy times seven and then some, who doesn't leave us or abandon us no matter where we go, who loves enemies, who tells us not to judge, who is the perfect love that casts out fear...then that weaves its way into who we are and how we act." -Kmom2-
Dear KJoe: With your mistaken dogma, there are a few questions you and those who think like you must answer.
1. Would not endless punishment be the return of evil for evil?
2. As we are commanded "to overcome evil with good," may we not safely infer that God will do the same? (Rom. 12:21)
3. Would the infliction of endless punishment be overcoming evil with good?
4. If God hates the sinner, does the sinner do wrong in hating Him?
5. Is God a changeable being? (James 1:17)
6. If God loves His enemies now, will he not always love them?
7. Is it just for God to be "kind to the evil and unthankful," in their present life? (Luke 6:35)
8. Would it be unjust for God to be kind to all men in a future state?
9. If all men justly deserve endless punishment, will not those who are saved, be saved unjustly?
10. If God "will by no means clear the guilty," by what means can just punishment be evaded? (Ex. 34:7)
11. As no man can measure endless punishment to his neighbor, will endless punishment be measured to him? (Luke 4:38)
12. Would it be merciful in God to inflict endless punishment? -- that is, merciful to the sufferer?
13. Can that be just which is not merciful?
14. Do not cruelty and injustice go hand in hand?
15. Can that be merciful which is not just?
-A. C. Thomas- -
Thanks Rose, there's so much logic there... I love it! the Bible should lead to questions like this, and the living Word within us shows us the truth...that's how religion is done! Thank you for these great questions.
I responded to your Christianity. My faith comes from the Spirit, my knowledge comes from the Scriptures. My response is the combination of these two Truths
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rose2Luv
Dear KJoe: My "religion"=
1. Jesus Christ is 100% successful as Saviour.
—- correct sentence but your meaning is false
2. Jesus Christ loses NOTHING, not leftover pieces of bread and fish, and not any fallen sons of Adam1.
—a nonsensical sentence
3. Jesus Christ equalizes the same mass "made sinners" into the identical mass "made righteous".
—a nonsensical sentence
4. All death is swallowed in victory.
—nonsensical sentence
5. Every knee bows in absolute union IN/EN the Names of all names in every dimension of heaven, earth, and underworld.
— every knee will bow. You added additional descriptions that isn't in the Scripture. You repeatedly do this. Satan did this too when talking to Jesus. He mixed in truth with made up lies. Frightening that you mimic Satan’s tricks
6. Creation longs for deliverance, it shall be delivered!
—did it again. Same response as 5
7. All/pas radically means all.
—twisting the context
8. In Adam 1 ALL die, in the Last Adam all shall live.
—see 7
9. The last enemy, death, has a limited future. It shall be NO more!
—see 7
10. God is the Source, Guide, Goal of the all/ the ta
—no, not true. people willfully reject the Lord.
Our God, the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, has not cursed His creation, and is in fact the Saviour of all that has been broken and bent by one man's sin. The day of hurts will be adequately met by the One who declares>>>
—God DID curse His creation.
The WHOLE of created life shall be delivered/set free/ emancipated from the tyranny of change and decay
—nice sentiment but made up
Yes KJoe, the whole radical all will be delivered!
Not a few choice few, not some, the whole radical ALL, shall be delivered!
And there shall be NO MORE curse!
On this forum you are allowed to refer to yourself anyway you wish. But I am also allowed to disagree with your religion
Your like minded followers is an interesting study. You come up with nice and pretty sounding platitudes but really offers little value or substance. I am very confident that you have pages of these nice sounding (and overused) phrases. You just pluck them out and paste them in.
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