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As a non-Christian I have not found a satisfactory theological or doctrinal answer to the following two questions which may have some follow-up. I am not looking for quotations but rather logical, rational explanations.
1) How is it possible that a moral and good person who did not experience salvation is not entitled to a place in heaven, but a person who was once saved but who in their lifetime committed many serious sins reaches heaven?
2) If because of the original sin of Adam and Eve all mankind needs the salvation and justification through Jesus and his crucifixion and resurrection, how could any human beings attain salvation before Jesus appeared on the scene in the first century, or even later on when the world didn't know about him?
As a non-Christian I have not found a satisfactory theological or doctrinal answer to the following two questions which may have some follow-up. I am not looking for quotations but rather logical, rational explanations.
Those questions are easily answered.
Quote:
1) How is it possible that a moral and good person who did not experience salvation is not entitled to a place in heaven, but a person who was once saved but who in their lifetime committed many serious sins reaches heaven?
The question assumes that 'going to heaven' depends upon how good we are. But it doesn't depend on how righteous we are because no matter how good we are humanly speaking, our relative and imperfect righteousness can never be good enough to measure up to God's perfect and absolute righteousness. This is why as Paul states in Romans chapters 3 through 5 that we are imputed or credited with the perfect righteousness of Jesus when we personally trust in him for eternal life. The believer being credited with the perfect righteousness of Christ then is qualified to be in the presence of God forever.
On the other hand, the unbeliever has only his own imperfect righteousness to stand on and it isn't enough. Therefore, he will spend the eternal future separated from God in a spiritual sense in a place that has been prepared for the devil and his angels but which will also be his eternal home.
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2) If because of the original sin of Adam and Eve all mankind needs the salvation and justification through Jesus and his crucifixion and resurrection, how could any human beings attain salvation before Jesus appeared on the scene in the first century, or even later on when the world didn't know about him?
Before Jesus went to the cross those who believed in God's promise of a future deliverer were saved because of their faith in God's promise. The means of salvation has always been the same though out human history. Those before the cross looked forward to the coming of the Savior while those after the cross look back to Jesus' finished work on the cross.
What about those who die never having heard of Jesus? Possibly they will have the opportunity after they die to come to Jesus for salvation.
1) How is it possible that a moral and good person who did not experience salvation is not entitled to a place in heaven, but a person who was once saved but who in their lifetime committed many serious sins reaches heaven?
According to the gospels, it indicates that we must specifically ask God for forgiveness, and salvation through Jesus. That's the only method or approach discussed. As for what happens to one who's lived a crappy life after salvation, we don't know how that's handled, but we can only assume some kind of reprimanding and disciplining happens by God upon reaching heaven.
2) If because of the original sin of Adam and Eve all mankind needs the salvation and justification through Jesus and his crucifixion and resurrection, how could any human beings attain salvation before Jesus appeared on the scene in the first century, or even later on when the world didn't know about him?
That's an unknown that isn't discussed. But obviously those were different times, with different handling. God had a very different approach with the Jews before Christ, and with us all afterwards.
It's good to ask questions, so feel free to continue!
Last edited by Thoreau424; 07-28-2021 at 05:31 PM..
My view is the Scriptures are not targeted to individuals - they are written to Gods people
They are about the kingdom Of God that the prophets foretold and at the time of Christ, the work of fulfilling those prophecies commenced, and there is a specific length of time indicated for that which is termed “the last days†and they are 2 days, which in Gods time is 2000 years
We are told in the last days perilous times come where there is godlessness and that is in those professing to be Gods people but who are more concerned over their own affairs rather than Gods affairs
So moral, good people/individuals do not need saving, and the salvation spoken of in the Scriptures is directed at Gods own people being saved from the sickness that has pervaded its own systems and organisations
The answer to the first question is that God doesn't do any forgiving without the shedding of blood. So you have to believe Jesus died for your sins. However that doesn't seem to be enough actually. You have to believe he was resurrected as well. And even then you need to cover your bases further by believing that Jesus is now sitting at the "right hand of God".
So even if you have to believe all of that it is officially the shed blood of Jesus that forgives you for your sins.
As for the believer who does bad things? There are basically three schools of thought here.
1) The guy wasn't really saved.
2) The guy sinned enough that he lost his salvation.
3) The guy managed to repent of all his dirty deeds before he died and either got saved or resaved depending on the doctrine.
As for the second question. This one is actually problematic if you were a gentile back then. You really didn't have a shot at heaven no matter what you did short of being "adopted" by the Israelites. The Jews were of course God's chosen people.
Now your typical gentile in the middle east that maybe knew about the Jewish God was really sunk but there is some sentiment that if you were a gentile from another part of the world and didn't have any clue about what was going on...
God might cut you some slack by maybe giving you a chance at heaven or a better spot in hell.
What is interesting though is that if you are a Christian (or Jew) who believes in the "age of accountability" doctrine. Does that mean there are a bunch of heathen babies and little kids up in heaven?
As a non-Christian I have not found a satisfactory theological or doctrinal answer to the following two questions which may have some follow-up. I am not looking for quotations but rather logical, rational explanations.
1) How is it possible that a moral and good person who did not experience salvation is not entitled to a place in heaven, but a person who was once saved but who in their lifetime committed many serious sins reaches heaven?
2) If because of the original sin of Adam and Eve all mankind needs the salvation and justification through Jesus and his crucifixion and resurrection, how could any human beings attain salvation before Jesus appeared on the scene in the first century, or even later on when the world didn't know about him?
1- I will use an analogy
A man commits a murder. He serves time and gets out of jail. He goes to his family's home and they allow him to come in and fellowship. Why would the family let him in the door when there are plenty of other worthy people (that they don't know) out there that haven't committed murder that they could let in?
Because he is family.
2- People are made in God's image, so they eternally exist. They live... they physically die.. Before Christ came, people had the opportunity through the Jewish community to know the Lord, because the Lord was directing the Jews (through Moses, Samuel, David, etc). So people live and die, and they reside in eternity. When Christ eventually dies on the cross, and through the faith in the Lord of the people who lived... Christ's death is credited to their account.
The answer to the first question is that God doesn't do any forgiving without the shedding of blood. So you have to believe Jesus died for your sins. However that doesn't seem to be enough actually. You have to believe he was resurrected as well. And even then you need to cover your bases further by believing that Jesus is now sitting at the "right hand of God".
So even if you have to believe all of that it is officially the shed blood of Jesus that forgives you for your sins.
As for the believer who does bad things? There are basically three schools of thought here.
1) The guy wasn't really saved.
2) The guy sinned enough that he lost his salvation.
3) The guy managed to repent of all his dirty deeds before he died and either got saved or resaved depending on the doctrine.
As for the second question. This one is actually problematic if you were a gentile back then. You really didn't have a shot at heaven no matter what you did short of being "adopted" by the Israelites. The Jews were of course God's chosen people.
Now your typical gentile in the middle east that maybe knew about the Jewish God was really sunk but there is some sentiment that if you were a gentile from another part of the world and didn't have any clue about what was going on...
God might cut you some slack by maybe giving you a chance at heaven or a better spot in hell.
What is interesting though is that if you are a Christian (or Jew) who believes in the "age of accountability" doctrine. Does that mean there are a bunch of heathen babies and little kids up in heaven?
You are doing way too much rational thinking about these irrational doctrines, Eddie. I am convinced they continue to exist precisely because of a lack of such rational thinking out of respect and reverence for the concept of God. It is a travesty.
Last edited by MysticPhD; 07-28-2021 at 06:32 PM..
Unfortunately there is more speculation here than actual informed discussion about these matters. The question is whether in both subjects there is an inherent gaping hole in the logic of the traditional dogma about salvation related specifically to events concerning the figure of Jesus of the New Testament.
The fact is that there is no historical evidence at all that people were saved anywhere on Earth by virtue of a "future promise" of Jesus. This is not recorded anywhere. It might be inferred and read into other scriptures, but it is not recorded anywhere, including the New Testament as a fact of history.
Regarding the fact of a moral person who is not "saved" according to Christian dogma facing an afterlife that is WORSE than that of an immoral person who may have once "accepted Jesus as his savior" but deteriorated after that is a serious theological problem.
^ There's a lot about nature, the universe, and yes God that we don't know. In the absence, we have to ponder, reflect, meditate, search, and sometimes fill in the gaps or theorize as best as we can. We shouldn't be so shallow or limited to let it completely stop us in our tracks. There's nearly always enough clues to piece together matters to build a bridge to move along on. A bridge not 100% complete can still function and be used. There's a lesson there in not knowing everything. That's part of it, and is even a test in itself. There's a lot more going on here than you're even scratching the surface to perceive. Keep open though.
Last edited by Thoreau424; 07-28-2021 at 06:55 PM..
Unfortunately there is more speculation here than actual informed discussion about these matters. The question is whether in both subjects there is an inherent gaping hole in the logic of the traditional dogma about salvation related specifically to events concerning the figure of Jesus of the New Testament.
The fact is that there is no historical evidence at all that people were saved anywhere on Earth by virtue of a "future promise" of Jesus. This is not recorded anywhere. It might be inferred and read into other scriptures, but it is not recorded anywhere, including the New Testament as a fact of history.
Regarding the fact of a moral person who is not "saved" according to Christian dogma facing an afterlife that is WORSE than that of an immoral person who may have once "accepted Jesus as his savior" but deteriorated after that is a serious theological problem.
That Old Testament saints were saved by believing the promise of God of a future deliverer is certainly present in the scriptures. The Levitical animal sacrifices were types to which Jesus' was the antitype. Isaiah 53 which Jesus applied to himself speaks of the suffering servant rendering himself as a guilt offering and bearing the sins of many, interceding for the transgressors which is exactly what Jesus did. Jesus told the Jews in John 8:56 that Abraham rejoiced to see his (Jesus') day, and that he saw it and was glad.
And no, there is no theological problem with the fact that salvation does not depend on us, but on the grace of God.
Interesting that you said that you weren't looking for quotations but then state that there is nothing recorded in the Bible affirming what I said.
And let's not forget the Messianic prophecies in the Old Testament which Jesus fulfilled. To give just one example,
The Messiah was to be preceded by a messenger (Isa. 40:3). It was fulfilled in Matthew 3:1-3.
Last edited by Michael Way; 07-28-2021 at 07:35 PM..
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