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For heaven's sake. I am asking a technical question as it applies to the world of mankind, and I get replies that reference Abraham or David. HOW was the WHOLE WORLD OF MANKIND BEFORE the first century, during the first century, or anytime thereafter among people who know or understand nothing about the role of Jesus, supposed to be saved after what happened with Adam and Eve without the sacrifice and salvation provided at the crucifixion that happened only in the first century??
And how does a good moral person with no connection to Jesus get a worse ultimate fate than a wicked person who may have been saved once in his early life??
I ask these questions and all I get are scriptural allusions and inferences without any official doctrinal explanation, with mention of David and Abraham. Can people please relate to what I am asking?
You should not be surprised that Christians use scripture to answer your questions about God, Jesus and salvation. Michael Way, DRob, jhorton and Baptist Fundie all gave you good answers.
I will add, concerning those who did not know of any coming messiah or haven’t heard of Jesus, Romans 1 answers that question. God has made Himself known through creation and man is without excuse for not recognizing our creator. If one makes a positive volition toward God, they are saved (made right with God) through Jesus Christ, even though they may not know of Him.
As a non-Christian I have not found a satisfactory theological or doctrinal answer to the following two questions which may have some follow-up. I am not looking for quotations but rather logical, rational explanations.
1) How is it possible that a moral and good person who did not experience salvation is not entitled to a place in heaven, but a person who was once saved but who in their lifetime committed many serious sins reaches heaven?
2) If because of the original sin of Adam and Eve all mankind needs the salvation and justification through Jesus and his crucifixion and resurrection, how could any human beings attain salvation before Jesus appeared on the scene in the first century, or even later on when the world didn't know about him?
The design of.the temple is there to teach 3 kingdoms of heaven, not one.
The problem is that Christian's wont study the design of the temple and its comings and goings which is sad because the design shows Christian's to be standing in the same kingdom as Atheists. Since the Christian hasnt a clue about God's religion, they think they are in a higher kingdom than an unbeliever when in truth, they will stand side by side with the Atheist in the outer court.
It is not what I LIKE, BF. The God Jesus Christ revealed is an agape loving God, NOT a wrathful and vengeful one. Why do you profess to follow Christ and deny the very God He revealed to us????
God revealed all of his nature through Scripture. The one who cares to know who God is consults it.
Your god is too small if you only believe in part of what he is.
God revealed all of his nature through Scripture. The one who cares to know who God is consults it.
Your god is too small if you only believe in part of what he is.
Any God who is NOT ABOVE the human weaknesses of wrath and vengeance is too small, BF. They are NOT Godly traits!!!
I am sorry, I don't see this doctrine in Romans 1. But if it were so, then presumably EVERY Christian denomination would make it clear that those who don't know or understand about the role of Jesus in salvation have nothing at all to worry about even if they belong to other religions, because their GOOD WORKS and INTENTIONS enables them to be saved automatically anyway. We hear nothing along those lines from the churches. Plus if this were the understanding, evangelism wouldn't be so important since everyone will be saved ANYWAY. Of course this theory still doesn't apply for humanity prior to the 1st century before Jesus was around, inferences read-ins nothwithstanding.
Is that the end of the story? There are so many informed participants. Maybe others will have contributions. It's just that so far there is too much theorizing and speculating, without actual doctrinal statements, which there should be like there for all the other major teachings of Christianity, according to whatever denomination.
I struggled with the same questions. I have many missionary relatives and their take is that God will "judge" people with no knowledge of Jesus, only on what they DO know, and what they do with what info they possess.
We have to believe he is just. If you are looking for "proof", you won't find it. That's the spiritual realm.
I am sorry, I don't see this doctrine in Romans 1. But if it were so, then presumably EVERY Christian denomination would make it clear that those who don't know or understand about the role of Jesus in salvation have nothing at all to worry about even if they belong to other religions, because their GOOD WORKS and INTENTIONS enables them to be saved automatically anyway. We hear nothing along those lines from the churches. Plus if this were the understanding, evangelism wouldn't be so important since everyone will be saved ANYWAY. Of course this theory still doesn't apply for humanity prior to the 1st century before Jesus was around, inferences read-ins nothwithstanding.
Romans 1
19 What may be known about God is plain to them, because God has made it plain to them. 20 For since the creation of the world God’s invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature—have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that people are without excuse.
As others have said, it’s not about being “good”, but rather understanding that we have missed the mark and must rely on God’s mercy.
And yes, what I said applies to anyone throughout history who has not heard of Jesus.
Romans 1 tells us that there is no such thing as a moral and good person that does not know God. He is evident to all.
Having said that, a key point of your question is the word bolded above. Do you know what "holy" and "just" means? It means that God cannot stand to be around sin. Even the person that committed small sins is guilty of sin.
Abraham believed God and it was credited to him as righteousness. His child and grandchildren were not nice people. They did not always follow God. But God blessed them anyway because he said he would. He continued to bless the nation of Israel. Not because they were good, but because he promised he would. They are his chosen people, and they looked to his promise to bless Abraham and his descendants. They looked forward to the Messiah that was to come, while we look back.
As I understand it, God's covenant with Israel, was just that. A covenant, which requires adherence on both parts. When the Israelites continued to break their covenant by worshipping other gods, God was no longer bound by the covenant, hence all the troubles they have had since.
And of course, most of them don't believe in the Messiah, either....so, not too sure where that leaves them.
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