Unanswered Questions (punishment, scriptures, verses, moral) - Christianity - - Page 10 - City-Data Forum

Basiliximab · 08-02-2021, 07:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Duvduv

As a non-Christian I have not found a satisfactory theological or doctrinal answer to the following two questions which may have some follow-up. I am not looking for quotations but rather logical, rational explanations.

1) How is it possible that a moral and good person who did not experience salvation is not entitled to a place in heaven, but a person who was once saved but who in their lifetime committed many serious sins reaches heaven?

This is a good question and I never understood it until I read the Westminster Confessions of Faith. This work explains the Bible in a completely and utterly rational way. There are some hard doctrines in there and ones which I wish were not true. But I do not get to dictate what kind of God exists; he exists and I have the choice to submit to him or not.

The answer involves the understanding that Christianity is God-centered, not man-centered. Your question starts with presuming man is entitled to anything at the hands of God. He is not. The purpose of the life which God has created here is not to have as many people as he can get believe in him and get to heaven based on how good they were. The purpose of this life is to glorify God and for the believer, to enjoy him forever. God is glorified in his mercy and justice. Just about everyone loves the mercy of God, but quite a few have issues with his justice. They want to dictate what kind of God it is that they will worship, and one that seems too "harsh" or "brutal" is a primitive invention of our ancestors.

To further explain, the societally good person will not attain fellowship in peace with God for eternity because he does not have the holiness or righteousness that is necessary to be able to dwell with God in a peaceful way. Only Jesus can give us that. Once we are believers we can in fact do "good works" to the glory of God because they are done to his glory and nothing else. A non-believer in fact does nothing good in the eyes of God because they do not perform their works to his glory; they cannot, because they do not believe in him.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Duvduv

2) If because of the original sin of Adam and Eve all mankind needs the salvation and justification through Jesus and his crucifixion and resurrection, how could any human beings attain salvation before Jesus appeared on the scene in the first century, or even later on when the world didn't know about him?

Because God revealed his provision of a Saviour in the Garden at the same time he announced the curse upon all creation. Those believers who lived before Jesus' finished work on the cross were saved in the same way as those who look to Jesus for salvation now: they looked to that Saviour for their salvation. They did not know exactly how it would play out, but they rested upon God's provision of a Messiah for redemption from their sins.

Nova2216 · 08-04-2021, 09:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Duvduv

As a non-Christian I have not found a satisfactory theological or doctrinal answer to the following two questions which may have some follow-up. I am not looking for quotations but rather logical, rational explanations.

1) How is it possible that a moral and good person who did not experience salvation is not entitled to a place in heaven, but a person who was once saved but who in their lifetime committed many serious sins reaches heaven?

2) If because of the original sin of Adam and Eve all mankind needs the salvation and justification through Jesus and his crucifixion and resurrection, how could any human beings attain salvation before Jesus appeared on the scene in the first century, or even later on when the world didn't know about him?

#1. First we must realize that "all men sin" and this transgression of Gods law separates men from God.(Eph. 2:12) (Rom. 3:23 ; 6:23) (Isa.59:1,2) (1Jn 3;4)

Thankfully, the grace of God has appeared to all men, but all men will not be saved.
(Titus 2:11,12) (Mt. 7:21-23).

How do men access the grace of God?

This is essentially what you are asking.

Grace "teaches us" how to "access" the grace of God. (Titus 2:11,12) (1Jn 3;7)

11. For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men,

12. Teaching us that,

denying ungodliness and worldly lusts,

we should live soberly, righteously, and godly, in this present world;

All men are saved in the same manner whether they live in the OT or NT. (Heb.5:9)

How was Noah saved in (Gen. 6:8,22)

Ge 6:8 ¶ But Noah found grace in the eyes of the LORD.

How did Noah find this grace?

Ge 6:22 ¶ Thus did Noah; according to all that God commanded him, so did he

By grace the Lord gave Noah commands to follow which if followed correctly would save him and his family. Humbly and gratefully Noah and his family followed those instructions of the Lord and built an ark (a boat) on dry ground. (Heb.11:7)

Noah was saved by grace, but not by grace alone.

In the NT men are saved in the same manner.

The Lord gives instructions how to access the grace of God and men decide to obey those in instructions. (Titus 2:11,12) (Heb.5:9)

The Lord told Paul to go see Ananias (a preacher) and he would tell him how to access the grace of God (be saved) (Acts 9). Three days of repenting, praying, fasting, being blind and led about by the hands of other people Paul finally gets to the house of Ananias (the preacher) in (Acts 22:16). So far this does not sound like Paul is saved.

One is not saved till they have been forgiven of their sins.

Ananias tells Paul to - (Acts 22:16)

1. Arise
2. Be Baptized (Acts 8:5,12,13,26-40 ; 16:14,15,30-34)
3. Wash Away Your Sins (Eph.1:7) (Rev.1:5)
4. Calling on the Lord (Ac.2:21,36-47)

All men in the NT are saved in this very same manner. (1Cor.4:17) (1Cor.1:10)

"When" was Paul's sins washed away by the blood of Jesus in (Acts 22:16)?

Was it in (Acts 9:1-9) three days earlier? (no it was not)

Paul had to go to Damascus, go find the street called straight, go find the house of Judas, find Ananias to learn how to access the grace of God. (Acts 9:6)

Sounds like legalism doesn't it. (it is not)

Joh 14:15 ¶ If ye love me, keep my commandments. (Jn. 14:15 ; 15:14)

1Jo 2:3 ¶ And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments. 4 He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him. 5 But whoso keepeth his word, in him verily is the love of God perfected: hereby know we that we are in him. 6 He that saith he abideth in him ought himself also so to walk, even as he walked. (1Jn 2:3-6)

Notice each conversion in the book of Acts

Jews (Acts 2:38-47)
Samaritans (Acts 8:5,12,13,26-40)
Cornelius (Acts 10:38)
Lydia (Acts 16:14,15)
The Jailer (Acts 16:30-34)
Corinthians (Acts 18:8)
Ephesians (Acts 19:1-6)
Paul (Acts 22:16)

In each conversion account they were "baptized". (Acts 8:5,12,13,26-40)

Why?

Believe + Baptism= Salvation (Mark 15:15,16) (Rom. 6:3-6,16-18)

Baptism Saves (1Peter 3:20,21)

Thanks

Nova2216 · 08-04-2021, 09:12 PM

For those who were saved but committed many sins note (1Jn 1:9).

1Jo 1:6 If we say that we have fellowship with him, and walk in darkness, we lie, and do not the truth: 7 But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin. 8 ¶ If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. 9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

Thanks

Duvduv · 08-07-2021, 10:07 AM

I am still waiting for people to directly address the questions I asked in the OP.

G.Duval · 08-07-2021, 11:38 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Duvduv

I am still waiting for people to directly address the questions I asked in the OP.

the principle is:
13"For it is not the hearers of the law who are righteous before God, but the doers of the law who will be justified 14For when Gentiles, who do not have the law, by nature do what the law requires, they are a law to themselves, even though they do not have the law. 15They show that the work of the law is written on their hearts, while their conscience also bears witness, and their conflicting thoughts accuse or even excuse them 16on that day when, according to my gospel, God judges the secrets of men by Christ Jesus."

Christ Spirit being in person regulates consciousness. Good , the Golden Rule compassion, consciousness is final state of being of a saved person.

pneuma · 08-07-2021, 11:59 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Duvduv

I am still waiting for people to directly address the questions I asked in the OP.

I did and even gave you the logic you were looking for.

MysticPhD · 08-07-2021, 12:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by G.Duval

the principle is:
13"For it is not the hearers of the law who are righteous before God, but the doers of the law who will be justified 14For when Gentiles, who do not have the law, by nature do what the law requires, they are a law to themselves, even though they do not have the law. 15They show that the work of the law is written on their hearts, while their conscience also bears witness, and their conflicting thoughts accuse or even excuse them 16on that day when, according to my gospel, God judges the secrets of men by Christ Jesus."

Christ Spirit being in person regulates consciousness. Good , the Golden Rule compassion, consciousness is final state of being of a saved person.