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As I understand it, God's covenant with Israel, was just that. A covenant, which requires adherence on both parts. When the Israelites continued to break their covenant by worshipping other gods, God was no longer bound by the covenant, hence all the troubles they have had since.
And of course, most of them don't believe in the Messiah, either....so, not too sure where that leaves them.
Yes. That's correct. They went through cycles of sin, discipline, repentance, blessing, and sin again.
And eventually, they rejected the Messiah. We know that God is not done with Israel yet, as Romans 11 says. But Gentiles have been grafted in, and Gentiles will be saved as well as faithful Jews. But those that reject the Messiah will be the same as any Gentile rejecting the Messiah.
As a non-Christian I have not found a satisfactory theological or doctrinal answer to the following two questions which may have some follow-up. I am not looking for quotations but rather logical, rational explanations.
1) How is it possible that a moral and good person who did not experience salvation is not entitled to a place in heaven, but a person who was once saved but who in their lifetime committed many serious sins reaches heaven?
2) If because of the original sin of Adam and Eve all mankind needs the salvation and justification through Jesus and his crucifixion and resurrection, how could any human beings attain salvation before Jesus appeared on the scene in the first century, or even later on when the world didn't know about him?
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Originally Posted by Duvduv
So far I don't see a clear definitive answer to my two questions. :-(
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Originally Posted by DRob4JC
OK...have a good day. Sorry no one could help.
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Originally Posted by Duvduv
Is that the end of the story? There are so many informed participants. Maybe others will have contributions. It's just that so far there is too much theorizing and speculating, without actual doctrinal statements, which there should be like there for all the other major teachings of Christianity, according to whatever denomination.
Some things about Christianity will not seem logical to you, since you are a non-Christian and God is beyond logic.
Some things even Christians do not have an answer for.
As a non-Christian I have not found a satisfactory theological or doctrinal answer to the following two questions which may have some follow-up. I am not looking for quotations but rather logical, rational explanations.
1) How is it possible that a moral and good person who did not experience salvation is not entitled to a place in heaven, but a person who was once saved but who in their lifetime committed many serious sins reaches heaven?
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Originally Posted by DRob4JC
1- I will use an analogy
A man commits a murder. He serves time and gets out of jail. He goes to his family's home and they allow him to come in and fellowship. Why would the family let him in the door when there are plenty of other worthy people (that they don't know) out there that haven't committed murder that they could let in?
Because he is family.
Taking question 1 alone... and my original answer.
One does not have a place in heaven because he/she may not be a part of God's family.
For heaven's sake. I am asking a technical question as it applies to the world of mankind, and I get replies that reference Abraham or David. HOW was the WHOLE WORLD OF MANKIND BEFORE the first century, during the first century, or anytime thereafter among people who know or understand nothing about the role of Jesus, supposed to be saved after what happened with Adam and Eve without the sacrifice and salvation provided at the crucifixion that happened only in the first century??
And how does a good moral person with no connection to Jesus get a worse ultimate fate than a wicked person who may have been saved once in his early life??
I ask these questions and all I get are scriptural allusions and inferences without any official doctrinal explanation, with mention of David and Abraham. Can people please relate to what I am asking?
That's not at all what you got from me in Post #11. Did you think I evaded the question, or what? I thought my answer was pretty direct.
So we are hearing that a person who was moral his entire life has less value in heaven with salvation than a person who "committed murder once" and was saved years before. The metaphor doesn't work completely because spiritually speaking a lifetime of misdeeds is not the same as committing a single murder.
Now say the story differently. One has a relative who was a pathological criminal for 40 years and knocks on the door of his family. Another person, a neighbor, was a righteous unsaved person for 40 years. The family greets and admits that criminal, and tells the unsaved righteous person to go take a hike. What kind of religion is that????
So we are hearing that a person who was moral his entire life has less value in heaven with salvation than a person who "committed murder once" and was saved years before. The metaphor doesn't work completely because spiritually speaking a lifetime of misdeeds is not the same as committing a single murder.
Now say the story differently. One has a relative who was a pathological criminal for 40 years and knocks on the door of his family. Another person, a neighbor, was a righteous unsaved person for 40 years. The family greets and admits that criminal, and tells the unsaved righteous person to go take a hike. What kind of religion is that????
Christianity teaches that all have sinned or “missed the mark†and are therefore rendered GUILTY.
You seem to think salvation is just mouthing a few words and you’re good. Rather, repentance is a change of heart. Behavior matters, but only after understanding our sinful state and accepting God’s mercy. Then we begin our journey toward being Godly.
Yes. That's correct. They went through cycles of sin, discipline, repentance, blessing, and sin again.
And eventually, they rejected the Messiah. We know that God is not done with Israel yet, as Romans 11 says. But Gentiles have been grafted in, and Gentiles will be saved as well as faithful Jews. But those that reject the Messiah will be the same as any Gentile rejecting the Messiah.
"For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.
And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:
For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins."
"For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.
And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:
For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins."
The mercy of the Christ, Richard!
Here's where Paul took it from "as it is written."
Isa. 59:20-21
"And the Redeemer shall come to Zion, and unto them that turn from transgression in Jacob, saith the Lord.
As for me, this is my covenant with them, saith the Lord; My spirit that is upon thee, and my words which I have put in thy mouth, shall not depart out of thy mouth, nor out of the mouth of thy seed, nor out of the mouth of thy seed's seed, saith the Lord, from henceforth and for ever."
This is the Age of Grace in which we live now and has been since the resurrection of Christ.
It's also called the Times of the Gentiles. The Gentiles rule this is earth and Israel is struggling for survival.
This will continue to get worse until it comes to a head, and the Redeemer comes to deliver Israel from sure defeat and extinction from this earth.
At the Second Coming of Christ to deliver Israel, "all Israel will be saved" they shall see the One whom they crucified face to face.
Now God's original plan for Israel unfolds. Jerusalem will be the capitol of the world! The Jews will be respected and honored as God's chosen people.
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