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As a non-Christian I have not found a satisfactory theological or doctrinal answer to the following two questions which may have some follow-up. I am not looking for quotations but rather logical, rational explanations.
1) How is it possible that a moral and good person who did not experience salvation is not entitled to a place in heaven, but a person who was once saved but who in their lifetime committed many serious sins reaches heaven?
I don't believe anyone "experiences salvation" in the way you're thinking it happens, nor do I believe that God loves only Christians and that there is a place in Heaven only for Christians. I believe that every last person who has ever been born is a child of God. I believe that He wants all of us to return to His presence someday. The idea that learning and commitment and progress cease at the moment we die is a totally nonsensical idea in my opinion. God's timetable is different from ours and His love and mercy exceed ours a million times over.
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[2) If because of the original sin of Adam and Eve all mankind needs the salvation and justification through Jesus and his crucifixion and resurrection, how could any human beings attain salvation before Jesus appeared on the scene in the first century, or even later on when the world didn't know about him?
My answer to your first question kind of answers this one too. We as human beings see death as an ending, the falling of the final curtain. God sees it as merely a transition from one state of existence to another. It's not just what we learn during our mortal lives that matter. We will never cease to be cognizant beings, capable of making decisions and learning new things forever. Death absolutely does not mark the end of our opportunities. To put it another way, I believe God has provided a means by which virtually everyone who has ever lived will have the chance to understand what Jesus did for them, and to know the steps that they need to take to be reconciled to God. It doesn't need to all happen during our 70 or 80 (or quite possibly even less) years here on earth.
I don't believe anyone "experiences salvation" in the way you're thinking it happens, nor do I believe that God loves only Christians and that there is a place in Heaven only for Christians. I believe that every last person who has ever been born is a child of God. I believe that He wants all of us to return to His presence someday. The idea that learning and commitment and progress cease at the moment we die is a totally nonsensical idea in my opinion. God's timetable is different from ours and His love and mercy exceed ours a million times over.
My answer to your first question kind of answers this one too. We as human beings see death as an ending, the falling of the final curtain. God sees it as merely a transition from one state of existence to another. It's not just what we learn during our mortal lives that matter. We will never cease to be cognizant beings, capable of making decisions and learning new things forever. Death absolutely does not mark the end of our opportunities. To put it another way, I believe God has provided a means by which virtually everyone who has ever lived will have the chance to understand what Jesus did for them, and to know the steps that they need to take to be reconciled to God. It doesn't need to all happen during our 70 or 80 (or quite possibly even less) years here on earth.
I don't believe anyone "experiences salvation" in the way you're thinking it happens, nor do I believe that God loves only Christians and that there is a place in Heaven only for Christians. I believe that every last person who has ever been born is a child of God. I believe that He wants all of us to return to His presence someday. The idea that learning and commitment and progress cease at the moment we die is a totally nonsensical idea in my opinion. God's timetable is different from ours and His love and mercy exceed ours a million times over.
My answer to your first question kind of answers this one too. We as human beings see death as an ending, the falling of the final curtain. God sees it as merely a transition from one state of existence to another. It's not just what we learn during our mortal lives that matter. We will never cease to be cognizant beings, capable of making decisions and learning new things forever. Death absolutely does not mark the end of our opportunities. To put it another way, I believe God has provided a means by which virtually everyone who has ever lived will have the chance to understand what Jesus did for them, and to know the steps that they need to take to be reconciled to God. It doesn't need to all happen during our 70 or 80 (or quite possibly even less) years here on earth.
Once sinned, the judgment is condemned eternally, so people who just try to stop sinning would be waste of time for trying to be saved to God ........ God has one judgment for all and that is the sacrifice of Jesus on the cross, as people must side with Jesus, or by default support Jesus death on the cross is the decision of lost people...................... people who surrender to Jesus must seek out Jesus Christ and love God and then repent of sin and turn away from sin and get born again in the spirit of God ...................... Most new convert need to find Christians who have the Spirit of God to get them to pray for you to find the right spirit and there are strange spirit is the world for people who reject their neighbours and Christians, as God is family
As a non-Christian I have not found a satisfactory theological or doctrinal answer to the following two questions which may have some follow-up. I am not looking for quotations but rather logical, rational explanations.
1) How is it possible that a moral and good person who did not experience salvation is not entitled to a place in heaven, but a person who was once saved but who in their lifetime committed many serious sins reaches heaven?
2) If because of the original sin of Adam and Eve all mankind needs the salvation and justification through Jesus and his crucifixion and resurrection, how could any human beings attain salvation before Jesus appeared on the scene in the first century, or even later on when the world didn't know about him?
1) How is it possible that a moral and good person who did not experience salvation is not entitled to a place in heaven, but a person who was once saved but who in their lifetime committed many serious sins reaches heaven?
Many people do not understand salvation Duv. Salvation is receiving the gift that God gives, everlasting life. Obviously all persons who have the heavenly calling were saved individuals. A person who is in a saved condition at this time, must endure to the end to actually receive salvation Mat 24:13. But if they die prior to the tribulation according to Romans 6:7 they will be acquitted of sin. The only ones who do not have redemption are those who have sinned against the holy spirit Mat 12:31,32
2) If because of the original sin of Adam and Eve all mankind needs the salvation and justification through Jesus and his crucifixion and resurrection, how could any human beings attain salvation before Jesus appeared on the scene in the first century, or even later on when the world didn't know about him?
Jesus death paid the ransom for all, with the exception of the ones I mentioned in answering question 1. It should be noted that none who died prior to the outpouring of holy spirit which started the new covenant will reside in heaven however as they were not able to be offered that covenant arrangement. That is why Jesus was so saddened at the death of John the Baptist, as no doubt he would have wanted him to be able to serve alongside him in heaven.
If you believe God is righteous, then the obvious answer for all that have never been given the opportunity to come and know Him, will receive a resurrection, so that they too will have the choice of serving Him or not.
Is that the end of the story? There are so many informed participants. Maybe others will have contributions. It's just that so far there is too much theorizing and speculating, without actual doctrinal statements, which there should be like there for all the other major teachings of Christianity, according to whatever denomination.
The issue is not whether to accept people's theorizing and speculation, but to find out what official church teachings are on certain issues. When it comes to baptism, or to salvation in general by faith in Jesus, etc., there are official statements and doctrines among the churches. But not on the two issues I raised? I find it hard to understand. And you simply want to dismiss me for not accepting the theorizing and speculating on this Forum? Doesn't make sense.
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