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No to the bolded, because we do not have two natures. We have one nature - a human nature that is composed of both body and spirit.
Jesus Christ is unique among humanity in that only He has two natures - one human and one divine.
not so mike, look up the old man and new man, the outer man and the inner man, the flesh and the spirit etc. many scriptures testify of our two natures.
If what you say is true, particularly the bolded, then why did God create us with this "animal nature"?
Stop thinking it is the Will of God over His created pets. It is just HOW God exists and reproduces His Spirit through His children, period. It is the self-discipline of controlling our animal nature that grows and develops our fetal Spirits from the womb of the flesh. It is the overcoming and enduring this physical existence that matures our Spirit sufficiently to be born again as Spirit upon our death. All the beauty in our discriminating Spirit exists in contrast to the ugliness of our indiscriminate animal nature.
not so mike, look up the old man and new man, the outer man and the inner man, the flesh and the spirit etc.
I have no doubt that there are a plethora of views out there dealing with the topic of "the old man and new man, the outer man and the inner man, the flesh and the spirit etc." - all of them probably using Scripture to back them up.
Thankfully, I have the testimony and teaching of God's Divine Authority on earth, the Catholic Church to guide me.
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Originally Posted by pneuma
many scriptures testify of our two natures.
It may seem that way to you, but it's not in fact the case. In other words, those Scriptures don't mean what you think they mean.
Stop thinking it is the Will of God over His created pets. It is just HOW God exists and reproduces His Spirit through His children, period. It is the self-discipline of controlling our animal nature that grows and develops our fetal Spirits from the womb of the flesh. It is the overcoming and enduring this physical existence that matures our Spirit sufficiently to be born again as Spirit upon our death. All the beauty in our discriminating Spirit exists in contrast to the ugliness of our indiscriminate animal nature.
Sorry Mystic, but I was born too late to get into that hippie stuff.
I have no doubt that there are a plethora of views out there dealing with the topic of "the old man and new man, the outer man and the inner man, the flesh and the spirit etc." - all of them probably using Scripture to back them up.
Thankfully, I have the testimony and teaching of God's Divine Authority on earth, the Catholic Church to guide me.
It may seem that way to you, but it's not in fact the case. In other words, those Scriptures don't mean what you think they mean.
God divine authority on earth is the Holy Spirit, the pope is not Gods authority, you can believe that if you wish but you are only following a man who is just a fallible as we are.
I decided to start a new thread to continue the conversation I was having with Jerwade in the Christianity and the LGBTQ Community (Part 3) thread that had veered off topic and onto the issue of male authority, or "male dominance" as Jerwade characterizes it.
I want to start by responding to this post by Jerwade:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jerwade It doesn't take much to see how women were treated over the centuries or how extreme fundamentalists treat homosexuals, nor those they consider a minority. Discrimination is not something new. Neither is Patriarchy as male dominance is one of the earliest known and most widespread forms of inequality in human history. And the Church exemplifies this fact as a sex (male) gender system of dominance.
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How were women treated? It's true that in many cases, women were treated as chattel in pagan societies. However, women have, by and large, been treated with dignity in Christian societies.
History reveals, if you study it, that the degradation of women was more from religious, theological beliefs and superstitions, rather than any other influence. And, the Roman Catholic church has traditionally been a prime example of classic patriarchy; the male-dominated hierarchical structure of the CHURCH and its wielding of power. That had also dominated women over the centuries. Please, do not give me your pious stance or hypocritical display of virtue. Although, I will agree that things have gotten better throughout time. But would not credit the Church for that advancement, as you might believe. Rather, society itself for various reasons.
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There is nothing wrong with discrimination. Every time we make a choice, we discriminate against all of the other alternative choices we could have made.
There is nothing wrong with inequality, per se. Humans are not equal. Men and women are not equal.
There is a great deal wrong with discrimination, especially when it demeans others as in being inferior, sinful, or a minority. Otherwise, we would not have come to make laws against it. We are not talking about making a choice between apple and cherry pie, or the kind of vehicle you desire. Rather, it has more to do with association, and things that directly result from prejudicial actions.
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Again I ask, how do you define "dominance"? By the way you're using the word, it seems to me that you're attempting to use it as a rhetorical cudgel against the Christian notion of male headship.
I do not buy into the religious male-dominance or headship theologies, as I view men and women on an equal basis (and all other human beings for that matter), having the same abilities, other than perhaps that of muscle strength or when it comes to conceiving and giving birth to a new born.
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Since greater than 50% of the population of the world at any given time has always been female, I object to your using the word "dominance" to describe man in relation to woman. "Dominance" implies the flourishing of one at the expense of another. Maybe you can explain how you see that happening either historically or presently in Christian societies...
I don’t care what you object to, history has shown that women had, and still are mistreated in a lot of cases. And we are not talking about 51% of the population being women, verses 49% men. Good grief! Historically, women were treated as property, or less-than, however that has, and is changing over time as we continue to advance as a society or civilization. If you believe the CHURCH has always treated women with dignity – than you don’t know it's history.
I think it depends. I really want to get a better idea of exactly what Jerwade means by "dominance".
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Originally Posted by BaptistFundie
Good luck with that.
If you want to open your mouth, then let us hear what you know about the history of the Church?
Other than that of worshiping your God; and a variety of false beliefs that you hold within your mind.
God divine authority on earth is the Holy Spirit, the pope is not Gods authority, you can believe that if you wish but you are only following a man who is just a fallible as we are.
I don't follow the Pope unless it is required by circumstance, though I am in Communion with him. I follow Christ. The Church is Christ's instrument on earth. It has been legitimately endowed with supernatural authority by Christ Himself.
You don't have to believe that if you don't want to, but I personally would starve spiritually without her. Where else can I consume the Body of Christ, without which I would have no life in me?
History reveals, if you study it, that the degradation of women was more from religious, theological beliefs and superstitions, rather than any other influence. And, the Roman Catholic church has traditionally been a prime example of classic patriarchy; the male-dominated hierarchical structure of the CHURCH and its wielding of power.
Thanks for responding.
In what way is an exclusively male hierarchical structure degrading to women?
Do you believe that patriarchy is inherently wrong? On what grounds?
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Originally Posted by Jerwade
That had also dominated women over the centuries
Can you give a specific example of what this looks like, to "dominate women"?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jerwade
Please, do not give me your pious stance or hypocritical display of virtue. Although, I will agree that things have gotten better throughout time. But would not credit the Church for that advancement, as you might believe. Rather, society itself for various reasons.
I do NOT believe that things have gotten better throughout time with regards to the male-female relation. I think things are pretty darn awful these days actually in terms of how women are treated - much worse than say 100 or even 1,000 years ago in the context of Western society.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jerwade
There is a great deal wrong with discrimination, especially when it demeans others as in being inferior, sinful, or a minority. Otherwise, we would not have come to make laws against it. We are not talking about making a choice between apple and cherry pie, or the kind of vehicle you desire. Rather, it has more to do with association, and things that directly result from prejudicial actions.
Women are not inferior to men in terms of dignity and worth. The man does not have authority over his wife because he is better than her or more virtuous. The man has authority because that's the order that God put into Creation. God created man (Adam), and then created woman for man and out of man. This in no way demeans woman, in fact it elevates her infinitely higher than the pagans ever did.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jerwade
I do not buy into the religious male-dominance or headship theologies, as I view men and women on an equal basis (and all other human beings for that matter), having the same abilities, other than perhaps that of muscle strength or when it comes to conceiving and giving birth to a new born.
Men and women have equal dignity and worth on the grounds that they are both human. I disagree that they have the same abilities, and would adamantly assert that they have been given/endowed by God with different roles to serve.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jerwade
Historically, women were treated as property, or less-than, however that has,
In Christian societies? Can you give an example?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jerwade
and is changing over time as we continue to advance as a society or civilization. If you believe the CHURCH has always treated women with dignity – than you don’t know it's history.
The Church is made up of humans - many of those humans have done some really awful things. But if you object to my claim that the Church, as an institution, has always treated women with dignity - certainly with more dignity than pagan institutions ever did - can you give an example of how the Church has, as an institution, dishonored women?
I don't follow the Pope unless it is required by circumstance, though I am in Communion with him. I follow Christ. The Church is Christ's instrument on earth. It has been legitimately endowed with supernatural authority by Christ Himself.
You don't have to believe that if you don't want to, but I personally would starve spiritually without her. Where else can I consume the Body of Christ, without which I would have no life in me?
I agree that the church is Christ's instrument on earth as you put it, but you might want to look up the meaning of catholic to grasp what it teaches, for what it teaches is in the meaning of its name.
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