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not even close. Paul actually based his theology on Scripture. You've repeatedly told us you reject the Scripture that you don't believe agrees with the experience you received.
LIAR! Why the hell do you keep repeating this lie about my views, BF. You are not being a Christian when you bear false witness against or are an accuser of the brethren. You know that my views are based on God's Holy Spirit of agape love and forgiveness as revealed by Jesus Christ on the Cross and described in YOUR Bible.
As a person who was fascinated with medieval life, particularly as regards the nobility, I'll take this one.
Just curious... have you ever read "A World Lit Only by Fire"? If you haven't, you owe it to yourself to get yourself a copy. It's a fascinating look at medieval life, particularly the religious aspects of it.
It's just not the matter of people being able to make their own choices within the parameters of the Church that I find disturbing. Obviously, embracing Christianity means giving up some choices in the belief that there is a greater good in doing so.
It's the idea that female children were used as currency between governments with the full enthusiasm and power of the Church.
Can you give a specific example of a female child being "used as currency" so that I can address the issue more specifically?
Like I said, I don't deny that abuses have taken place, possibly even on a large scale. But that fact doesn't invalidate the Biblical teaching that a man is to be the head over his wife.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mightyqueen801
I am also a person who does not believe the Adam and Eve story is literal, and even as part of Christian metaphor or allegory or whatever one wants to call it, "your husband shall rule over you", is not God declaring that males are superior by virtue of the fact that they have a dangling reproductive organ, but rather that this is what is going to happen now that sin has entered the world.
While I do believe the Adam and Eve story to be historical, I agree that God's declaration that "your husband shall rule over you" is a part of the curse of the fall. There's a difference between a man "ruling over" his wife and a man taking his proper role of leadership over his wife, which necessarily includes sacrifice (love) to the point of death. "Husbands, love your wives as Christ loved the Church and gave Himself for her".
The curse is made evident by the many abuses man has inflicted upon woman over the centuries and to this day. A man fulfilling his God-given role as leader in the family and in society does not have the same connotation as "ruling over". The language is nuanced.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mightyqueen801
Then of course there is the fact that it was males who conveniently wrote those stories and ran the societies and organizations that declared men to be in charge.
I am not saying it can't work. I worked for a year in the heart of Satmar Hasidic Judaism. The women I worked with did not feel oppressed, and in fact seemed outright happy in their roles within their society. They freely shared their rules for dressing according to Torah along with food and other traditions as the year went through its cycle. (Boro Park Brooklyn smells like burnt toast in the days before Pesach. It was quite pleasant.)
There is just a fine line between joyfully accepting traditional roles and being forced into subservience.
Certainly I'm not advocating forcing anyone into subservience. I believe that when men and women assume their proper roles in the family and society, everything functions better since that is the order God wired into creation.
Just curious... have you ever read "A World Lit Only by Fire"? If you haven't, you owe it to yourself to get yourself a copy. It's a fascinating look at medieval life, particularly the religious aspects of it.
Can you give a specific example of a female child being "used as currency" so that I can address the issue more specifically?
I find your question surprising, given that it was such a common practice. But the daughters of my favorite medieval queen, Eleanor of Aquitaine, come to mind first.
Princess Joanna
Eleanor of Aquitaine’s third daughter by Henry II, named Joanna, was barely 4 years old when she was betrothed to King William II of the regnu di sicilia – the Norman kingdom of Sicily. 10 years old when sent to Sicily for her wedding, she was a pawn in the struggle between Pope Alexander III and the German Empire, which ruled much of Italy.
Like I said, I don't deny that abuses have taken place, possibly even on a large scale. But that fact doesn't invalidate the Biblical teaching that a man is to be the head over his wife.
A teaching written by a man in a patriarchal society. That is the problem.
Quote:
Originally Posted by EscAlaMike
While I do believe the Adam and Eve story to be historical, I agree that God's declaration that "your husband shall rule over you" is a part of the curse of the fall. There's a difference between a man "ruling over" his wife and a man taking his proper role of leadership over his wife, which necessarily includes sacrifice (love) to the point of death. "Husbands, love your wives as Christ loved the Church and gave Himself for her".
The curse is made evident by the many abuses man has inflicted upon woman over the centuries and to this day. A man fulfilling his God-given role as leader in the family and in society does not have the same connotation as "ruling over". The language is nuanced.
Certainly I'm not advocating forcing anyone into subservience. I believe that when men and women assume their proper roles in the family and society, everything functions better since that is the order God wired into creation.
It can be. We see it in the animal world, for example, with males protecting females during birthing times; often bright-colored males distracting predators while drab females blend into the nest. They each have their role as relates to survival of the species.
But there have been so, so many abuses, large and small, by the use of the biblical quotes declaring the man to be the head of the household.
There was a thread on City-Data in the past year wherein some women told the stories of not being able to purchase a car with their own cash without their husband's permission, not being able to apply for a credit card without their husband's signature. This was not a thousand years ago, but 40. That is wrong and an abuse of the Bible to justify such behavior in society, yet we know there are men on this very forum who would not agree and claim that this is the way God sees it.
I find your question surprising, given that it was such a common practice. But the daughters of my favorite medieval queen, Eleanor of Aquitaine, come to mind first.
Princess Joanna
Eleanor of Aquitaine’s third daughter by Henry II, named Joanna, was barely 4 years old when she was betrothed to King William II of the regnu di sicilia – the Norman kingdom of Sicily. 10 years old when sent to Sicily for her wedding, she was a pawn in the struggle between Pope Alexander III and the German Empire, which ruled much of Italy.
t can be. We see it in the animal world, for example, with males protecting females during birthing times; often bright-colored males distracting predators while drab females blend into the nest. They each have their role as relates to survival of the species.
But there have been so, so many abuses, large and small, by the use of the biblical quotes declaring the man to be the head of the household.
There was a thread on City-Data in the past year wherein some women told the stories of not being able to purchase a car with their own cash without their husband's permission, not being able to apply for a credit card without their husband's signature. This was not a thousand years ago, but 40. That is wrong and an abuse of the Bible to justify such behavior in society, yet we know there are men on this very forum who would not agree and claim that this is the way God sees it.
Any male who uses the Bible to justify his decisions over his wife is NOT a man in my estimation. He is a spineless wimp. The controlling decision should be based on the merits of the decision, NOT the genitalia of the decision-maker.
Any male who uses the Bible to justify his decisions over his wife is NOT a man in my estimation. He is a spineless wimp. The controlling decision should be based on the merits of the decision, NOT the genitalia of the decision-maker.
Any male who uses the Bible to justify his decisions over his wife is NOT a man in my estimation. He is a spineless wimp. The controlling decision should be based on the merits of the decision, NOT the genitalia of the decision-maker.
I find your question surprising, given that it was such a common practice. But the daughters of my favorite medieval queen, Eleanor of Aquitaine, come to mind first.
Princess Joanna
Eleanor of Aquitaine’s third daughter by Henry II, named Joanna, was barely 4 years old when she was betrothed to King William II of the regnu di sicilia – the Norman kingdom of Sicily. 10 years old when sent to Sicily for her wedding, she was a pawn in the struggle between Pope Alexander III and the German Empire, which ruled much of Italy.
While this seems scandalous to our modern sensibilities; given the context of the time, I don't know how egregiously we ought to view it.
I don't think there's any grounds to say that's worse than the kinds of things that went on in pre-Christian societies.
Is it even worse than what goes on nowadays in our post-Christian society? I think that's certainly debatable.
Context is everything.
Mike male and female according to Gods plan has always been ONENESS. It was man that changed Gods plan and promote that change instead of promoting ONENESS as they should have.
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Any male who uses the Bible to justify his decisions over his wife is NOT a man in my estimation. He is a spineless wimp. The controlling decision should be based on the merits of the decision, NOT the genitalia of the decision-maker.
