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The equality view that you have just espoused is not an historically Christian view, but is thoroughly a modern one. I do not claim that a man's role is more important than a woman's.
In fact, the single most important role ever served by a human being was that of the woman who bore the Son of God, thereby crushing the serpent's head.
The Catholic Faith esteems woman more so than any other religion in history. Are you unfamiliar with the honor and devotion we show to the Blessed Virgin Mary?
You should study your own churches past history to the present, women have not been esteemed.
And, no, I am not going to do that for you, research it yourself - if you want the truth of the matter.
A question for those who carry the virus of dehumanization:
"How exactly does it happen that normal human beings, all endowed with that of a conscience, having an awareness of individual responsibility for their judgments and choices; manage to justify in their own eyes the most inhumane atrocities and acts of self-righteousness without running into intolerable cognitive dissonance within their own supreme values?"
You should study your own churches past history to the present, women have not been esteemed.
And, no, I am not going to do that for you, research it yourself - if you want the truth of the matter.
Maybe you're the one who needs to do some research.
I've done my research. Research is what brought me to the Catholic Church.
The truth of the matter is that no institution in human history has esteemed women more so than the Catholic Church; and if it weren't for the influence of the Church on western society, women would be treated as chattel property as they were in pagan societies.
It is only as the influence of the Church has waned that we see women being systematically degraded and dehumanized as we do today in our porn-soaked culture.
Certainly abuses have taken place throughout history, but I'm not willing to concede that all of the things you mentioned were always wrong or unjust.
The idea that everyone should be free to make their own choices and should not be subject to authority is not an historically Christian one. Like it or not, in a Catholic society, as Medieval ones were, the authority of the Church and State in these matters was legitimate. Were their decisions always just and prudent? No, but that can be attributed to human error and human sin and is not a problem inherent to the system.
It's just not the matter of people being able to make their own choices within the parameters of the Church that I find disturbing. Obviously, embracing Christianity means giving up some choices in the belief that there is a greater good in doing so.
It's the idea that female children were used as currency between governments with the full enthusiasm and power of the Church.
I am also a person who does not believe the Adam and Eve story is literal, and even as part of Christian metaphor or allegory or whatever one wants to call it, "your husband shall rule over you", is not God declaring that males are superior by virtue of the fact that they have a dangling reproductive organ, but rather that this is what is going to happen now that sin has entered the world.
Then of course there is the fact that it was males who conveniently wrote those stories and ran the societies and organizations that declared men to be in charge.
I am not saying it can't work. I worked for a year in the heart of Satmar Hasidic Judaism. The women I worked with did not feel oppressed, and in fact seemed outright happy in their roles within their society. They freely shared their rules for dressing according to Torah along with food and other traditions as the year went through its cycle. (Boro Park Brooklyn smells like burnt toast in the days before Pesach. It was quite pleasant.)
There is just a fine line between joyfully accepting traditional roles and being forced into subservience.
What does that have to do with the current discussion? Do you believe the Bible promotes that? That Jesus and the apostles taught such a thing?
It indicates the foolishness of believing in apostolic succession as some magic that can be transmitted from human to human by ritual in the name of Jesus because those "apostolic successors" were the ones who instituted and taught that.
It indicates the foolishness of believing in apostolic succession as some magic that can be transmitted from human to human by ritual in the name of Jesus because those "apostolic successors" were the ones who instituted and taught that.
If I'm not mistaken, MQ is Episcopalian. If I'm wrong, I'd welcome a correction. My point though, is that I believe the Episcopalians recognize the idea of apostolic succession.
In any event, the point I'm making is that yes, people will fail. They'll do stupid stuff, sin, and hurt others. But that does not invalidate the message of God. I mean, look at you. You claim to be all about his agape love, but I've called you out on a number of occasions calling people names. Heck, you just called Mike a Neanderthal, I believe. Or was it someone else?
If I'm not mistaken, MQ is Episcopalian. If I'm wrong, I'd welcome a correction. My point though, is that I believe the Episcopalians recognize the idea of apostolic succession.
In any event, the point I'm making is that yes, people will fail. They'll do stupid stuff, sin, and hurt others. But that does not invalidate the message of God. I mean, look at you. You claim to be all about his agape love, but I've called you out on a number of occasions calling people names. Heck, you just called Mike a Neanderthal, I believe. Or was it someone else?
Let's face it, BF, my encounter, like Saul's on the road to Damascus, could be interpreted as a direct intervention by Jesus to erase my atheism. But let's keep things real, I know my weaknesses and flaws which is why I would NEVER claim apostolic succession or EVER believe anyone else who does! YMMV. There is no magic, BF, just us humans trying to work things out!
I see as apostolic succession as a tradition within the historical church, not something magic. Part of the Episcopal Church's attraction, to me, was history, ritual, and tradition. As everyone here should know by now, I do not think there is any one "right" church.
I see as apostolic succession as a tradition within the historical church, not something magic. Part of the Episcopal Church's attraction, to me, was history, ritual, and tradition. As everyone here should know by now, I do not think there is any one "right" church.
The value of history is that it provides a less subjective lens through which to view what occurred in the past IF we apply the increased knowledge and understanding we should have achieved by then. The value of ritual is it focuses our consciousness on God. The value of tradition is that it provides a continuity of experience that builds community. There is no one "right" church or religion, but there is only ONE God. We all have flawed and imperfect conceptions that we SHOULD seek to improve rather than stagnate at the earliest possible interpretations.
Let's face it, BF, my encounter, like Saul's on the road to Damascus, could be interpreted as a direct intervention by Jesus to erase my atheism. But let's keep things real, I know my weaknesses and flaws which is why I would NEVER claim apostolic succession or EVER believe anyone else who does! YMMV. There is no magic, BF, just us humans trying to work things out!
not even close. Paul actually based his theology on Scripture. You've repeatedly told us you reject the Scripture that you don't believe agrees with the experience you received.
I see as apostolic succession as a tradition within the historical church, not something magic. Part of the Episcopal Church's attraction, to me, was history, ritual, and tradition. As everyone here should know by now, I do not think there is any one "right" church.
Thanks for the clarification. Didn't mean to suggest you did view it as magic.
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