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An atheist poster who had previously been a Christian described years of praying, fasting, church-going, witnessing and doing all the things a devout Christian is supposed to do. Alas, it all collapsed and he’s now an atheist. I remarked that this isn’t an uncommon path – i.e., when you scratch the surface of a gung-ho atheist, it’s not uncommon to find he was once equally gung-ho about Christianity.
Another poster, a believer, stated that Christian faith is no different from the everyday sort of “faith” we exercise when we trust a ladder that seems to be sturdy enough to hold us. I remarked that Christian faith is very different – ontologically different, meaning “a completely different animal.”
Throughout many threads on these forums, it seems to me that atheists and believers alike often miss or misunderstand the one genuine Christian essential, the sine qua non of Christianity.
Participating in all the rituals of Christianity, even with complete sincerity, is no guarantee. In the 18th century Denmark of famed philosopher/theologian Soren Kierkegaard, the Evangelical-Lutheran Church was the official state church. Everyone was ostensibly a Christian, knee-deep in the trappings of the religion. Kierkegaard questioned whether it was even possible to become a Christian in such an environment. He described faith as "a leap into 70,000 fathoms of water."
Nor is being a Christian mere intellectual assent to the doctrines of Christianity. As the Letter of James states, even the demons believe. When I regularly attended Southern Baptist churches, one of the most common admonitions was against mere intellectual assent to the Gospel. One doesn’t "prepare" until the Gospel seems more "reasonable" than "unreasonable," then step onto the ladder of “faith.”
The one Christian essential is a genuine encounter with God. The Christian model is that God calls the individual, the Holy Spirit convicts the individual of the truth of the Gospel, and the individual with the grace of God and the assistance of the Holy Spirit responds in faith.
The faith response is all-consuming. It involves the entire being of the individual. It’s a response that is possible only with the participation of the Holy Spirit. It’s truly nothing like trusting a ladder not to break.
When this encounter occurs, the Christian journey begins. The truths of Christianity unfold and blossom – intellectually, yes, but much more than intellectually because the individual has literally been born anew. He sees with different eyes, hears with different ears.
Ostensible Christians who’ve never had genuine encounters with God will always occupy a house of cards. Their Christianity will always be weak and fragile, no matter how sincere or devout it may seem to them and others. They are the most prone to rigidity, to debating the fine points of doctrine and insisting they are correct.
Unbelievers will never grasp the effect of a genuine encounter with God. They simply can’t. Those who have had such an encounter are literally different animals. What seems irrational or foolish to the unbeliever is now Truth to the believer. It’s Truth at a much deeper level than mere intellectual assent.
I don’t believe those who have had such an encounter are ever in real danger of falling away. As Jesus said, “I give them eternal life, and they will never perish; and no one will snatch them out of my hand.” I also believe a correct understanding of the genuine essentials of doctrine - which are pretty basic and largely uncontroversial across the entire spectrum of Orthodoxy, Catholicism and Protestantism - flows from a genuine encounter.
I described my own born-again experience at 20, which was so unanticipated that I began to question it almost immediately. It launched me on a long and twisting quest. Decades later, I realized it had been the encounter with God it had seemed at the time. My faith arose in a flash, a mystery to me even as it was occurring and certainly nothing like intellectual assent. I had never really been in danger of falling away.
God calls people at all ages and in all sorts of circumstances. I don’t know of any way to induce such an encounter, other perhaps than through prayer. It does seem to me that God calls whom he will when he will, which makes me sound like a Calvinist. I only know it isn’t a matter of “trying to act like a Christian,” no matter how sincere one may be, or trying to “convince myself that belief is reasonable enough for me to respond favorably.” Both of these approaches are fundamentally misguided.
You have your experience, others have their own personal experiences and we do not all have the same gift, ability, level, etc
I try not to judge others experience or faith as what I see is that that there is great diversity being formed on earth by design
Not everyone is part of the eye, or the ear, or the feet - so not everyone will hear or see as that is not their “estate” or “inheritance” ie part in the body
1Co 12:13**For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit.
1Co 12:14**For the body is not one member, but many.
1Co 12:15**If the foot shall say, Because I am not the hand, I am not of the body; is it therefore not of the body?
1Co 12:16**And if the ear shall say, Because I am not the eye, I am not of the body; is it therefore not of the body?
1Co 12:17**If the whole body were an eye, where were the hearing? If the whole were hearing, where were the smelling?
1Co 12:18**But now hath God set the members every one of them in the body, as it hath pleased him.
1Co 12:19**And if they were all one member, where were the body?
1Co 12:20**But now are they many members, yet but one body.
1Co 12:21**And the eye cannot say unto the hand, I have no need of thee: nor again the head to the feet, I have no need of you.
1Co 12:22**Nay, much more those members of the body, which seem to be more feeble, are necessary:
An atheist poster who had previously been a Christian described years of praying, fasting, church-going, witnessing and doing all the things a devout Christian is supposed to do. Alas, it all collapsed and he’s now an atheist. I remarked that this isn’t an uncommon path – i.e., when you scratch the surface of a gung-ho atheist, it’s not uncommon to find he was once equally gung-ho about Christianity.
Another poster, a believer, stated that Christian faith is no different from the everyday sort of “faith” we exercise when we trust a ladder that seems to be sturdy enough to hold us. I remarked that Christian faith is very different – ontologically different, meaning “a completely different animal.”
Throughout many threads on these forums, it seems to me that atheists and believers alike often miss or misunderstand the one genuine Christian essential, the sine qua non of Christianity.
Participating in all the rituals of Christianity, even with complete sincerity, is no guarantee. In the 18th century Denmark of famed philosopher/theologian Soren Kierkegaard, the Evangelical-Lutheran Church was the official state church. Everyone was ostensibly a Christian, knee-deep in the trappings of the religion. Kierkegaard questioned whether it was even possible to become a Christian in such an environment. He described faith as "a leap into 70,000 fathoms of water."
Nor is being a Christian mere intellectual assent to the doctrines of Christianity. As the Letter of James states, even the demons believe. When I regularly attended Southern Baptist churches, one of the most common admonitions was against mere intellectual assent to the Gospel. One doesn’t "prepare" until the Gospel seems more "reasonable" than "unreasonable," then step onto the ladder of “faith.”
The one Christian essential is a genuine encounter with God. The Christian model is that God calls the individual, the Holy Spirit convicts the individual of the truth of the Gospel, and the individual with the grace of God and the assistance of the Holy Spirit responds in faith.
The faith response is all-consuming. It involves the entire being of the individual. It’s a response that is possible only with the participation of the Holy Spirit. It’s truly nothing like trusting a ladder not to break.
When this encounter occurs, the Christian journey begins. The truths of Christianity unfold and blossom – intellectually, yes, but much more than intellectually because the individual has literally been born anew. He sees with different eyes, hears with different ears.
Ostensible Christians who’ve never had genuine encounters with God will always occupy a house of cards. Their Christianity will always be weak and fragile, no matter how sincere or devout it may seem to them and others. They are the most prone to rigidity, to debating the fine points of doctrine and insisting they are correct.
Unbelievers will never grasp the effect of a genuine encounter with God. They simply can’t. Those who have had such an encounter are literally different animals. What seems irrational or foolish to the unbeliever is now Truth to the believer. It’s Truth at a much deeper level than mere intellectual assent.
I don’t believe those who have had such an encounter are ever in real danger of falling away. As Jesus said, “I give them eternal life, and they will never perish; and no one will snatch them out of my hand.” I also believe a correct understanding of the genuine essentials of doctrine - which are pretty basic and largely uncontroversial across the entire spectrum of Orthodoxy, Catholicism and Protestantism - flows from a genuine encounter.
I described my own born-again experience at 20, which was so unanticipated that I began to question it almost immediately. It launched me on a long and twisting quest. Decades later, I realized it had been the encounter with God it had seemed at the time. My faith arose in a flash, a mystery to me even as it was occurring and certainly nothing like intellectual assent. I had never really been in danger of falling away.
God calls people at all ages and in all sorts of circumstances. I don’t know of any way to induce such an encounter, other perhaps than through prayer. It does seem to me that God calls whom he will when he will, which makes me sound like a Calvinist. I only know it isn’t a matter of “trying to act like a Christian,” no matter how sincere one may be, or trying to “convince myself that belief is reasonable enough for me to respond favorably.” Both of these approaches are fundamentally misguided.
My own journey was one of waking up in the morning and thinking "I am going to find God" I thought that thought was mine, now looking back it would seem to be the Holy Spirit drawing me to God. 90 days later I accepted the Lord, but didn't find the gospel of grace until a couple years ago and now of course I trust every word of that. What a ride it has been. Never heard of a believer who regretted his choice.......the Lord is simply awesome and loves all of us. If you're pondering this make the right choice.........
The one Christian essential is a genuine encounter with God. The Christian model is that God calls the individual, the Holy Spirit convicts the individual of the truth of the Gospel, and the individual with the grace of God and the assistance of the Holy Spirit responds in faith.
The faith response is all-consuming. It involves the entire being of the individual. It’s a response that is possible only with the participation of the Holy Spirit. It’s truly nothing like trusting a ladder not to break.
When this encounter occurs, the Christian journey begins. The truths of Christianity unfold and blossom – intellectually, yes, but much more than intellectually because the individual has literally been born anew. He sees with different eyes, hears with different ears.
Obviously I would agree with this as an atheist who encountered God but without all the doctrinal trappings and preconceptions a typical Christian would have. This means I experienced the essential nature of God's Holy Spirit rendering me capable of recognizing it in the Christian narrative as the Holy Spirit of agape love and forgiveness demonstrated by Jesus Christ on the Cross as the true Good News Gospel of Christ.
The True Nature of God's Holy Spirit IS the core essence of the Christian faith. It was unambiguously demonstrated by Jesus Christ on the Cross in stark contrast to the dominant belief about the wrathful nature of God among our ancestors. This is why I cannot understand how the dominant orthodoxy EVER came to be accepted, let alone persist for millennia.
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I don’t believe those who have had such an encounter are ever in real danger of falling away. As Jesus said, “I give them eternal life, and they will never perish; and no one will snatch them out of my hand.” I also believe a correct understanding of the genuine essentials of doctrine - which are pretty basic and largely uncontroversial across the entire spectrum of Orthodoxy, Catholicism and Protestantism - flows from a genuine encounter.
I agree that such an encounter immunizes you from ever losing your belief in God and Jesus. But I disagree with your belief that the dominant orthodoxy is uncontroversial or that it accurately reflects and is confirmed by a genuine encounter with God. Just the opposite is true!
No one who has actually encountered God would EVER accept the wrathful, vengeful, and punitive things attributed to Him in the Bible. The interpretation of the Eden fable is especially absurd. God would never curse our entire species or create the orthodox doctrine of eternal hell and damnation (or annihilation) for ANY REASON, let alone for eating from the wrong tree or not believing the right things!!!!
- John 14:23 "Whoever loves me will keep my word, and my Father will love him, and we will come to him and make our dwelling with him."
but I know, easier said than done.
Everyone who loves is "conceived by God" and knows God but that is a "seed" that must be nurtured by the states of mind associated with God's Holy Spirit of agape love as revealed by Jesus Christ on the Cross. They WILL come and abide with you permanently if you are receptive.
If people fell away from Christ then you can be sure that the foundation that they have was weak like Jesus called ``Built His house on sand and was washed away in hard times........... One key is to get the baptism of Holy Spirit Like God prefers as this gift of God is where the Power of God is, which help bring protection from the devil and a lead to bring provision for stability .... with this baptism of Holy Spirit will bring people closer to God on a daily hour to hour presence
The one Christian essential is a genuine encounter with God. The Christian model is that God calls the individual, the Holy Spirit convicts the individual of the truth of the Gospel, and the individual with the grace of God and the assistance of the Holy Spirit responds in faith.
The faith response is all-consuming. It involves the entire being of the individual. It’s a response that is possible only with the participation of the Holy Spirit. It’s truly nothing like trusting a ladder not to break.
When this encounter occurs, the Christian journey begins. The truths of Christianity unfold and blossom – intellectually, yes, but much more than intellectually because the individual has literally been born anew. He sees with different eyes, hears with different ears...
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Originally Posted by Irkle Berserkle
I don’t believe those who have had such an encounter are ever in real danger of falling away. As Jesus said, “I give them eternal life, and they will never perish; and no one will snatch them out of my hand.” I also believe a correct understanding of the genuine essentials of doctrine - which are pretty basic and largely uncontroversial across the entire spectrum of Orthodoxy, Catholicism and Protestantism - flows from a genuine encounter.
I don't know. I believe there are many people who have had genuine encounters with God and yet have fallen away.
What about all of the people who saw Jesus with their own eyes, witnessed His miracles, and yet disbelieved, hated Him, and had Him put to death? Is seeing Jesus face to face not a genuine encounter with God?
What about reception of Holy Communion? Is that not a true encounter with God, yet how many people who hate God receive Him in Communion?
I believe that it is possible to have a genuine encounter with God, and to truly loathe the experience, or to even be indifferent to it. That's why it's so important that we be properly disposed for it.
I don't know. I believe there are many people who have had genuine encounters with God and yet have fallen away.
What about all of the people who saw Jesus with their own eyes, witnessed His miracles, and yet disbelieved, hated Him, and had Him put to death? Is seeing Jesus face to face not a genuine encounter with God?
What about reception of Holy Communion? Is that not a true encounter with God, yet how many people who hate God receive Him in Communion?
I believe that it is possible to have a genuine encounter with God, and to truly loathe the experience, or to even be indifferent to it. That's why it's so important that we be properly disposed for it.
Perhaps we need to define what a "genuine encounter with God" even means. It probably means something different to each one of us.
Perhaps we need to define what a "genuine encounter with God" even means. It probably means something different to each one of us.
Very true.
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