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The bold says you have placed your faith in men, NOT Jesus or God. You ignore or reject knowing Jesus and God as Jesus revealed and demonstrated unambiguously on the Cross. That is NOT how you are "born of God" and achieve eternal life. Knowing God and Jesus IS eternal life, NOT following the dictates of men, period! You are delegating your responsibility to other men to know God and Jesus and hope your faith in them will somehow suffice. Bad plan, Mike. You need to know God and Jesus yourself because THAT is eternal life. There is no magic or supernatural shortcut from your humble submission to men.
John 17:3 (King James Version) 3And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.
1 John 4:7 (King James Version) 7Beloved, let us love one another: for love is of God; and every one that loveth is born of God, and knoweth God.
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Originally Posted by BaptistFundie
And that's an example of what happens when we choose to believe the words of men instead of the words of God. You and Mystic get into a shouting match over who is right. He blathers about barbaric teachings, you say the Pope and the magisterium are right.
Instead, it's amazing what happens when we actually follow the Words of God as laid out in Scripture.
The bold is your HUGE mistake! There are no Words of God. There is the ONE AND ONLY Word of God (Logos) who is Jesus. You make no effort to actually know Him and His "mind of Christ" which IS God's Holy Spirit of agape love and forgiveness!!! When you follow "words written in ink" you are NOT following the Word of God. You need to read the words in ink using the "mind of Christ" to know what they were actually supposed to communicate.
The bold is your HUGE mistake! There are no Words of God. There is the ONE AND ONLY Word of God (Logos) who is Jesus. You make no effort to actually know Him and His "mind of Christ" which IS God's Holy Spirit of agape love and forgiveness!!! When you follow "words written in ink" you are NOT following the Word of God. You need to read the words in ink using the "mind of Christ" to know what they were actually supposed to communicate.
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Originally Posted by EscAlaMike
Jesus is God.
Jesus spoke words.
Therefore, there are words of God.
Don't be pedantic, Mike. that is NOT the point. Logos does NOT refer to words and never HAS referred to words so the belief that scripture is or was EVER the infallible and inerrant words of God is just stupid and wrong! They are God-inspired but human interpretations by very primitive minds. The recording of Jesus's words are few and far between and subject to the same interpretation problems. His actual ACTIONS on the Cross are unlikely to be in error but their interpretation of why and what it meant ARE! The scriptures are "profitable" (that only means USEFUL) for instruction in righteousness as long as we use the "mind of Christ" to understand them and not our primitive ancestors' misguided and mistaken beliefs about God.
Don't be pedantic, Mike. that is NOT the point. Logos does NOT refer to words and never HAS referred to words so the belief that scripture is or was EVER the infallible and inerrant words of God is just stupid and wrong!
We do not believe that Scripture is inerrant because of the word/concept of logos. I don't see how these two ideas are directly related at all.
We believe that Scripture is inerrant because the Church tells us that they were written by inspiration of the Holy Ghost, and the Holy Ghost cannot inspire to error.
"But the Church holds these books as sacred and canonical, not because, having been put together by human industry alone, they were then approved by its authority; nor because they contain revelation without error; but because, having been written by the inspiration of the Holy Spirit, they have God as their author and, as such, they have been handed down to the Church itself."
Quote:
Originally Posted by MysticPhD
They are God-inspired but human interpretations by very primitive minds. The recording of Jesus's words are few and far between and subject to the same interpretation problems. His actual ACTIONS on the Cross are unlikely to be in error but their interpretation of why and what it meant ARE! The scriptures are "profitable" (that only means USEFUL) for instruction in righteousness as long as we use the "mind of Christ" to understand them and not our primitive ancestors' misguided and mistaken beliefs about God.
How can one know the "mind of Christ" if one rejects His Bride?
When we abandon Scripture, the result is all sorts of wild stuff.
Yes; but that's not really relevant to this thread.
The question of the thread topic is not whether people "abandon Scripture" or what happens when they do. We know that they do, and the results are easily observed.
The question is whether the idea of sola scriptura is scriptural.
Don't be pedantic, Mike. that is NOT the point. Logos does NOT refer to words and never HAS referred to words so the belief that scripture is or was EVER the infallible and inerrant words of God is just stupid and wrong! They are God-inspired but human interpretations by very primitive minds. The recording of Jesus's words are few and far between and subject to the same interpretation problems. His actual ACTIONS on the Cross are unlikely to be in error but their interpretation of why and what it meant ARE! The scriptures are "profitable" (that only means USEFUL) for instruction in righteousness as long as we use the "mind of Christ" to understand them and not our primitive ancestors' misguided and mistaken beliefs about God.
Quote:
Originally Posted by EscAlaMike
We do not believe that Scripture is inerrant because of the word/concept of logos. I don't see how these two ideas are directly related at all.
The stupid use of the translation as "Word" is what causes confusion and misunderstanding. Logos has to do with the very essence and nature of God's consciousness, NOT "words."
Quote:
We believe that Scripture is inerrant because the Church tells us that they were written by inspiration of the Holy Ghost, and the Holy Ghost cannot inspire to error.
That is true when you are in the state of mind that Jesus unambiguously showed to BE the Holy Spirit of agape. Anyone can be in that state of mind without the aid of the supernatural. But given the primitive and barbaric interpretations and explanations, it is clear that few of today's Christians are, and certainly, none of the dominant and controlling ancestors and leaders of the Church were in a Holy Spirit state of mind.
"But the Church holds these books as sacred and canonical, not because, having been put together by human industry alone, they were then approved by its authority; nor because they contain revelation without error; but because, having been written by the inspiration of the Holy Spirit, they have God as their author and, as such, they have been handed down to the Church itself."
How can one know the "mind of Christ" if one rejects His Bride?
Your tendency to accept supernatural (or magical, IMO) thinking has you willing to accept such notions of authority supernaturally handed down to mere men. But it was NOT some magical transference of supernatural guidance, it was the state of mind accompanying the Holy Spirit that is and was to be our guide and the guide of those who followed after the apostles. The mistake has succeeded for so long primarily because they used an amorphous and supernatural concept of the Holy Spirit. It would not have happened if they had actually recognized that it is a very SPECIFIC state of mind of agape love as revealed and unambiguously demonstrated by Jesus on the Cross!
By keeping it supernatural and mysterious they could claim anything they said was inspired by the Holy Spirit. That cannot be done with the Holy Spirit as agape love as described in detail and unambiguously demonstrated by Jesus. There can be no mistaking what is and what is NOT from the Holy Spirit when that is done. You have been seriously misled, Mike.
Yes; but that's not really relevant to this thread.
The question of the thread topic is not whether people "abandon Scripture" or what happens when they do. We know that they do, and the results are easily observed.
The question is whether the idea of sola scriptura is scriptural.
If one doesn’t believe the Scriptures are from God, what’s the point of discussing whether Sola Scriptura is Scriptural? This is precisely why I won’t discuss any topic with Mystic. We have no common ground. You & I disagree on many things, but we both believe the Scriptures are the word of God, and I’m very grateful for that. It’s one reason I enjoy our discussions so much.
If one doesn’t believe the Scriptures are from God, what’s the point of discussing whether Sola Scriptura is Scriptural? This is precisely why I won’t discuss any topic with Mystic. We have no common ground. You & I disagree on many things, but we both believe the Scriptures are the word of God, and I’m very grateful for that. It’s one reason I enjoy our discussions so much.
Doesn't sola scripture mean that only the scriptures in Bible count and any scriptures outside of the Bible, like the EnochX scrolls don't count ?
Scripture itself is derived from scribe. Scriptures were the scrolls written by scribes.
But sola scripture only counts the scriptures contained within the Bible to be sacred.
That is my understanding. Am I off ?
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