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Christ's words were spiritual; meaning that Jesus was not suggesting that His followers cannibalize Him. We do not cut off Christ's limbs and cook and eat them as the Hebrews did with the passover lamb.
Christ's flesh is True Food and His blood is True Drink. This is a spiritual truth, since we cannot see it with our physical eyes.
We agree. Christ’s words were spiritual. I also agree that His flesh and blood are His true food and drink. Jesus said it Himself.
I have always believed that Jesus is present with us every time we share His supper. The problem I have is the claim that a priest says some words over the bread and fruit of the vine, and bingo, it becomes the body and blood of Jesus, like magic. I believe that’s where many non-Catholics take issue. There is absolutely no authority for such a thing in Scripture.
You are choosing to apply this strange reading to it. The fact is , is that those who heard him say it in person, the apostles, held to transsubstantiation and taught it to their followers . The later church didn't create this, it was a teaching of the earliest church handed down from the apostles.
Strange reading? I gave you Scripture.
If the apostles held to the doctrine of transubstantiation, or if they taught it, then prove it with the Scriptures.
Clearly, that is exactly what you think. Jesus could not have made it any clearer that he was talking about a physical eating of his body, but you, with a complete self assurance, tell us that we aren't to believe he really meant what he said!
I honestly don't think it's as clear as you'd like to believe it is. If it were, Christians worldwide who don't accept the doctrine of Transubstantiation but who are every bit as devout and sincere as those who do, would also believe it. I think that sometimes it's best for us to just try to explain our point of view to the best of our ability, doing our best to help others who want to understand our perspective to be able to do so. That's all any of us can do here on this forum really.
Once we've explained what we believe and why, the best approach is to then just let our audience decide for themselves what to believe. And if they rely on the Spirit for guidance, rather than just dismissing what people are telling them without being willing to admit that they might be wrong, or relying on the most articulate debaters to provide them with accurate information, they will sooner or later come to discover the truth for themselves. And with that, it's time I moved on to another thread. I do not personally hold to the doctrine of Transubstantiation, but I appreciate the time and effort that those who do have spent in trying to explain it to me.
I honestly don't think it's as clear as you'd like to believe it is. If it were, Christians worldwide who don't accept the doctrine of Transubstantiation but who are every bit as devout and sincere as those who do, would also believe it. I think that sometimes it's best for us to just try to explain our point of view to the best of our ability, doing our best to help others who want to understand our perspective to be able to do so. That's all any of us can do here on this forum really.
Once we've explained what we believe and why, the best approach is to then just let our audience decide for themselves what to believe. And if they rely on the Spirit for guidance, rather than just dismissing what people are telling them without being willing to admit that they might be wrong, or relying on the most articulate debaters to provide them with accurate information, they will sooner or later come to discover the truth for themselves. And with that, it's time I moved on to another thread. I do not personally hold to the doctrine of Transubstantiation, but I appreciate the time and effort that those who do have spent in trying to explain it to me.
Nice post. It goes well with my belief that I should love God and love my neighbor as I love myself, period. If I do both those things, and just live my life, I have very little time for trying to judge someone else's mortal soul. So I just don't do it.
We agree. Christ’s words were spiritual. I also agree that His flesh and blood are His true food and drink. Jesus said it Himself.
I have always believed that Jesus is present with us every time we share His supper. The problem I have is the claim that a priest says some words over the bread and fruit of the vine, and bingo, it becomes the body and blood of Jesus, like magic. I believe that’s where many non-Catholics take issue. There is absolutely no authority for such a thing in Scripture.
You can characterize it as "magic" if you want, but there's no reason why you should have a problem with something incredible or even miraculous happening at the command of a spoken word.
The entire universe was brought into existence through God's spoken word. God said, "let there be light", and bingo, just like magic, there was light!
Jesus brought the little girl to life by speaking to her (Mark 5:41). Jesus cursed the fig tree by speaking to it (Mark 11:14). Jesus brought Lazarus back to life by speaking to him (John 11:43). Would you call that magic?
Lest you think only God has this power, He has given that power to men as well. In John 14, Jesus promised His disciples that they would do greater works than He had done.
Peter raised Tabitha (or Dorcas) to life by speaking to her (Acts 9:40).
When Jesus said "this is my Body", the bread obeyed as all of creation must do. When the Priest says "Hoc est corpus meum", the bread must obey as it has been commanded by God to do so.
If the apostles held to the doctrine of transubstantiation, or if they taught it, then prove it with the Scriptures.
You twisted Scripture . Big difference .
I don’t need to prove anything by scripture that the apostles did . The early church taught what the apostles taught them . You can choose not to believe it, but that changes nothing . All of the descendants of the early churches still teach the same thing as the first bishops and priest were taught by the apostles , the Real Presence of Christ in the bread and wine . The RCC, the Eastern Orthodox, the Oriental Orthodox, all teach it . There is a reason why . It’s because that’s what the apostles taught . Even Martin Luther believed in the Real Presence of Christ . He just changed the word to co substantiation for some reason . In short, EVERY church that can trace its roots directly to the Apostles teach the Real Presence .
Maybe there is some reason for this .
Here is what Ignatius of Antioch had to say in 110 AD. He is regarded as one of the 3 most important Fathers of the immediate church after the apostles .
“Take note of those who hold heterodox opinions on the grace of Jesus Christ which has come to us, and see how contrary their opinions are to the mind of God. . . . They abstain from the Eucharist and from prayer because they do not confess that the Eucharist is the flesh of our Savior Jesus Christ, flesh which suffered for our sins and which that Father, in his goodness, raised up again. They who deny the gift of God are perishing in their disputes” (Letter to the Smyrnaeans 6:2–7:1 [A.D. 110]).
Last edited by NatesDude; 11-15-2021 at 03:28 PM..
Nice post. It goes well with my belief that I should love God and love my neighbor as I love myself, period. If I do both those things, and just live my life, I have very little time for trying to judge someone else's mortal soul. So I just don't do it.
Strange reading? I gave you Scripture.
If the apostles held to the doctrine of transubstantiation, or if they taught it, then prove it with the Scriptures.
For I received from the Lord what I also handed on to you, that the Lord Jesus, on the night he was handed over, took bread,
and, after he had given thanks, broke it and said, “This is my body that is for you. Do this in remembrance of me.”
In the same way also the cup, after supper, saying, “This cup is the new covenant in my blood. Do this, as often as you drink it, in remembrance of me.”
For as often as you eat this bread and drink the cup, you proclaim the death of the Lord until he comes.
Therefore whoever eats the bread or drinks the cup of the Lord unworthily will have to answer for the body and blood of the Lord.
A person should examine himself, and so eat the bread and drink the cup.
For anyone who eats and drinks without discerning the body, eats and drinks judgment on himself.
1 Cor 11:23-29
You can characterize it as "magic" if you want, but there's no reason why you should have a problem with something incredible or even miraculous happening at the command of a spoken word.
The entire universe was brought into existence through God's spoken word. God said, "let there be light", and bingo, just like magic, there was light!
Jesus brought the little girl to life by speaking to her (Mark 5:41). Jesus cursed the fig tree by speaking to it (Mark 11:14). Jesus brought Lazarus back to life by speaking to him (John 11:43). Would you call that magic?
Lest you think only God has this power, He has given that power to men as well. In John 14, Jesus promised His disciples that they would do greater works than He had done.
Peter raised Tabitha (or Dorcas) to life by speaking to her (Acts 9:40).
When Jesus said "this is my Body", the bread obeyed as all of creation must do. When the Priest says "Hoc est corpus meum", the bread must obey as it has been commanded by God to do so.
First of all, there is no priesthood in the New Testament church separate from other Christians. All Christians are priests. Secondly, Jesus NEVER gave power or authority to transubstantiate bread and fruit of the vine into His actual body and blood to anyone, not even His Apostles.
The promise Jesus made in John 14 was given specifically to His Apostles. It was to them He said, “ 6 But the Helper, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in My name, He will teach you all things, and bring to your remembrance all things that I said to you.”
When Jesus said "this is my Body", the bread obeyed as all of creation must do. When the Priest says "Hoc est corpus meum", the bread must obey as it has been commanded by God to do so.
Do you believe Jesus is a man right now in Heaven?
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Perfectly stated. 
