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In fairness to MissKate, even though there is much her and I disagree on; instructing the ignorant is a spiritual act of mercy.
We are to speak the truth in love. With that comes prudence. Some people need a gentle nudge, some (like me) need a kick in the pants. Since almost none of us actually know each other personally, it's hard to determine how to go about dealing with each poster on a message board.
I know that because of my disposition (that of being hard-headed and thick-skinned), I tend to assume others are that way. That's foolish of me, I know. But I also feel that message board discussions are fundamentally different from face to face discussions, and it makes little sense to beat around the bush in this format of interaction.
In other words, the way I interact with non-Catholics when discussing theological issues in real life is very different from how I interact here.
In fairness to MissKate, even though there is much her and I disagree on; instructing the ignorant is a spiritual act of mercy.
We are to speak the truth in love. With that comes prudence. Some people need a gentle nudge, some (like me) need a kick in the pants. Since almost none of us actually know each other personally, it's hard to determine how to go about dealing with each poster on a message board.
I know that because of my disposition (that of being hard-headed and thick-skinned), I tend to assume others are that way. That's foolish of me, I know. But I also feel that message board discussions are fundamentally different from face to face discussions, and it makes little sense to beat around the bush in this format of interaction.
In other words, the way I interact with non-Catholics when discussing theological issues in real life is very different from how I interact here.
Thank you for your honesty. I do get what you are saying, and I agree. I have to constantly reel myself in here, where face to face, I don’t even think about it.
Nonsense . They responded directly to his words that his flesh and blood was food and drink . They questioned his saying, asking how Jesus could give them his flesh and blood to eat and drink , and when he didn’t explain it as allegorical, many left him. After many left him, he then asked the apostles if they too were going to leave him . At no time did he ever claim his words were allegorical or symbolic , despite many followers leaving him DIRECTLY because of his claim .
So again , why would Jesus allow followers to leave , if he didn’t really mean it literally and the people simply misunderstood him? Just answer that and don’t try to confuse the issue by expanding out into other things . Why did he let followers leave over his claim if he was speaking symbolically and they just misunderstood him ?
My answer was in the context of John 6. I stand by it. We will simply have to agree to disagree.
So do you not believe in the Trinity? Do you not believe in the canon of scripture? I mean, neither of them are mentioned in the bible.
I won't go into a ton of detail about my answers to Jesus (especially since I don't know what He's going to ask me -nor do you). But I will say that I will probably fall down on my face before Him.
The point I was trying to make to you is that Jesus was given all authority in heaven and on earth. He was given authority over all things in the church. If we are practicing doctrines not taught by Jesus, then whoever gave those teachings went over Jesus’ head. Maybe you’re comfortable with that. I am not.
The word trinity is not found in Scripture. That said, I believe the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit are ONE God. I don’t need the word trinity to know that. The Scriptures themselves teach it.
The canon of Scripture is a set of books that Christians regard as authoritative. However, the books were not compiled until centuries after the manuscripts were written. Therefore, you won’t find the phrase canon of Scripture in the word of God. That doesn’t mean God’s word doesn’t carry the final authority.
We must both pray daily that we are living up to the standards God has given us. No doubt we will both fall short.
I used to win all the prizes in Sunday School for being the first to memorize verses (as well as being the first to memorize all 66 books of the Bible in order), so I'm really not impressed when people quote the Bible in lieu of dialogue.
There are more choices than those you list above.
One of those choices is understanding that the person to whom you are speaking is coming from a different perspective than you are. You may still feel that you are "right", but you really don't get any special points from God for believing that your way is superior, you know.
You just get points for loving your neighbor.
Loving your neighbor = Telling them the truth from God’s word.
My intention was not to score points with God, you or anyone else. Impressing you never entered my mind. I quoted Matthew 15:9 to get you to look at what Jesus is telling us. He says our worship is worthless if we are teaching the doctrines of men. That includes me. We cannot be teaching things Jesus didn’t teach. He is the authority, not us. Believe me, I am constantly checking myself to be sure I’m not trying to pass my teachings onto people rather than Jesus’ teaching.
The point I was trying to make to you is that Jesus was given all authority in heaven and on earth. He was given authority over all things in the church. If we are practicing doctrines not taught by Jesus, then whoever gave those teachings went over Jesus’ head. Maybe you’re comfortable with that. I am not.
The word trinity is not found in Scripture. That said, I believe the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit are ONE God. I don’t need the word trinity to know that. The Scriptures themselves teach it.
The canon of Scripture is a set of books that Christians regard as authoritative. However, the books were not compiled until centuries after the manuscripts were written. Therefore, you won’t find the phrase canon of Scripture in the word of God. That doesn’t mean God’s word doesn’t carry the final authority.
We must both pray daily that we are living up to the standards God has given us. No doubt we will both fall short.
I'm not talking about the phrase "canon," I'm talking about the canon of scripture itself. Much of the New Testament has been contested over the years by various factions, books have been put in and taken out, books and letters have circulated among churches which were not included in the canon of scripture, many stories were handed down orally before finally being written down hundreds of years later, books and lettes were translated from various languages into many different languages and versions...yet you believe in your 21st century Protestant version of the canon of scripture ONLY.
To your point about Jesus allowing them to leave…
Jesus gives each of us a choice. He doesn’t force anyone to follow Him.
These people who had been following Jesus quarreled and complained. It wasn’t that they couldn’t understand what Jesus was saying. They wouldn’t accept His sayings because they wanted instant physical gratification.
If you look back at John 6:26, you will see that Jesus knew the hearts of these people. They saw the signs, and now they want to be fed. They were not sincerely wanting to learn. Thank They were acting just like the Israelites in the wilderness, whining and complaining. In verse 30-33, they demand a sign in order to believe. Their mentality was that Moses gave bread everyday, then the least Jesus can do is feed us everyday. Jesus tells them Moses didn’t give them bread. He tells them My Father did, and now He is giving you the true bread, which is Me! But their hearts were focused on the physical flesh and not on the spiritual aspects of what Jesus was telling them.
Jesus made a similar offer to the Samaritan woman at the well. He offered her living water, saying, “Whoever drinks of the water that I will give him shall never thirst; but the water that I will give him will become in him a well of water springing up to eternal life” (John 4:13-14).
The Samaritan woman thought Jesus offered her a literal, magical water. She said, “Master, give me this water, so I will not be thirsty nor come all the way here to draw” (John 4:15). She was focused on the physical.
The people also took Jesus’ offer of bread literally. They said to Him, “Master, always give us this bread” (6:34). The Samaritan woman and the people in 6:22-did not look beyond the physical world.
The key to understanding John 6 is reading it in its entire context and paying special attention to Jesus’ words in 6:63.
“It is the Spirit who gives life; the flesh profits nothing. The words that I speak to you are spirit, and they are life.
Quote:
Originally Posted by MissKate12
My answer was in the context of John 6. I stand by it. We will simply have to agree to disagree.
We can agree or disagree, but I was just curious about how those who choose to not believe in it deal with the fact that Jesus let disciples leave over what Protestants will insist is a misunderstanding of his words, even after the disciples asked him to clarify what he meant . He refused, letting his original words stand and letting people leave over them, over what you claim is a misunderstanding of what he meant .
You haven’t really dealt with why Jesus would allow many disciples to leave simply because they took his words literally when you say he didn’t mean them that way. Do people put any thought into this passage , or do they just skip over it and sweep it under the rug ?
Last edited by NatesDude; 11-12-2021 at 06:37 AM..
We can agree or disagree, but I was just curious about how those who choose to not believe in it deal with the fact that Jesus let disciples leave over what Protestants will insist is a misunderstanding of his words, even after the disciples asked him to clarify what he meant . He refused, letting his original words stand and letting people leave over them, over what you claim is a misunderstanding of what he meant .
You haven’t really dealt with why Jesus would allow many disciples to leave simply because they took his words literally when you say he didn’t mean them that way. Do people put any thought into this passage , or do they just skip over it and sweep it under the rug ?
We can agree or disagree, but I was just curious about how those who choose to not believe in it deal with the fact that Jesus let disciples leave over what Protestants will insist is a misunderstanding of his words, even after the disciples asked him to clarify what he meant . He refused, letting his original words stand and letting people leave over them, over what you claim is a misunderstanding of what he meant .
You haven’t really dealt with why Jesus would allow many disciples to leave simply because they took his words literally when you say he didn’t mean them that way. Do people put any thought into this passage , or do they just skip over it and sweep it under the rug ?
I’ve dealt with it, but you blew it off as “nonsense” even though I gave you Scriptures in context. You refused to see the spiritual lesson Jesus was teaching.
Jesus’ sayings were hard because He wanted people to seek Him with a sincere heart. He knew the hearts of the Jews in John 6 were not right, and no one can understand the hard sayings of Jesus if their heart isn’t earnestly seeking the truth. It’s only when we are willing to honestly and sincerely let our hearts open up to the Lord that the Holy Spirit will open our eyes to the truth.
I think I’ve about beaten this horse to death with you. Time to move on. Maybe we’ll actually find a topic we can agree on. Have a great day Mr Nate.
I’ve dealt with it, but you blew it off as “nonsense” even though I gave you Scriptures in context. You refused to see the spiritual lesson Jesus was teaching.
Jesus’ sayings were hard because He wanted people to seek Him with a sincere heart. He knew the hearts of the Jews in John 6 were not right, and no one can understand the hard sayings of Jesus if their heart isn’t earnestly seeking the truth. It’s only when we are willing to honestly and sincerely let our hearts open up to the Lord that the Holy Spirit will open our eyes to the truth.
I think I’ve about beaten this horse to death with you. Time to move on. Maybe we’ll actually find a topic we can agree on. Have a great day Mr Nate.
If Jesus was being metaphorical or symbolic about eating His flesh and drinking His blood, how could that be considered a "hard saying"?
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