Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
Tried to rep you, but I guess it's too soon. That was a beautiful video!
Now, I'd like to share a musical rendition of an LDS hymn based on the words Jesus said to His Apostles at the Last Supper, as performed by Gladys Knight and her "Be One" choir.
Sunday has long since passed. What say you about the church fathers view of transubstantiation?
Yes, I have read these quotes. Here are more from the church fathers, ones you won’t find on a Catholic website. I don’t suppose you have seen these. It is clear that they believed the bread and fruit of the vine to be symbols of the body and blood of Jesus.
Tertullian (160–225)
“Having taken the bread and given it to His disciples, Jesus made it His own body, by saying, ‘This is My body,’ THAT IS, THE SYMBOL OF MY BODY. There could not have been a symbol, however, unless there was first a true body. An empty thing or phantom is incapable of a symbol. He likewise, when mentioning the cup and making the new covenant to be sealed ‘in His blood,’ affirms the reality of His body. For no blood can belong to a body that is not a body of flesh” (Against Marcion, 4.40).
The Didache
10:4 Thou, Almighty Master, didst create all things for Thy name's sake, and didst give food and drink unto men for enjoyment, that they might render thanks to Thee; 10:5 but didst bestow upon us SPIRITUAL FOOD AND DRINK. and eternal life through Thy Son.
Clement of Alexandria
“The Scripture, accordingly, has named wine THE SYMBOL OF THE SACRED BLOOD ” (The Instructor, 2.2).
Origen
“WE HAVE A SYMBOL OF GRATITUDE TO GOD IN THE BREAD WHICH WE CALL THE EUCHARIST” (Against Celsus, 8.57).
Cyprian (200–258)
“I marvel much whence this practice has arisen, that in some places, contrary to Evangelical and Apostolic discipline, water is offered in the Cup of the Lord, WHICH ALONE CANNOT REPRESENT THE BLOOD OF CHRIST” (Epistle 63.7).
Eusebius of Caesarea*(263–340)*
“For with the wine which WHICH WAS INDEED A SYMBOL OF HIS BLOOD, He cleanses them that are baptized into His death, and believe on His blood, of their old sins, washing them away and purifying their old garments and vesture, so that they, ransomed by the precious blood of the divine spiritual grapes, and with the wine from this vine, "put off the old man with his deeds, and put on the new man which is renewed into knowledge in the image of Him that created him.". . . He gave to His disciples, when He said, "Take, drink; this is my blood that is shed for you for the remission of sins: this do in remembrance of me." And, "His teeth are white as milk," show the brightness and purity of the sacramental food. For again, HE GAVE HIMSELF THE SYMBOLS of His divine dispensation to His disciples, when He bade them make the likeness of His own Body. For since He no more was to take pleasure in bloody sacrifices, or those ordained by Moses in the slaughter of animals of various kinds, and WAS TO GIVE THEM BREAD TO USE AS THE SYMBOL OF HIS BODY, He taught the purity and brightness of such food by saying, “And his teeth are white as milk” (Demonstratia Evangelica, 8.1.76–80).
Augustine (354–430)
“Understand spiritually what I said; you are not to eat this body which you see; nor to drink that blood which they who will crucify me shall pour forth. . . . Although it is needful that this be visibly celebrated, yet it must be SPIRITUALLY UNDERSTOOD” (Exposition of the Psalms, 99.8).
“He committed and delivered to His disciples THE FIGURE [or symbol] of His Body and Blood.” (Exposition of the Psalms, 3.1).
Sunday has long since passed. What say you about the church fathers view of transubstantiation?
Yes, I have read these quotes. Here are more from the church fathers, ones you won’t find on a Catholic website. I don’t suppose you have seen these. It is clear that they believed the bread and fruit of the vine to be symbols of the body and blood of Jesus.
Haha! to the bolded. You're funny.
Those quotes are perfectly in line with Catholic theology. Of course if you read them through your biased, anti-Catholic lenses, you can interpret them any way you want. You have to interpret them in the context of what we already know those individuals believed.
Obviously the bread and wine are symbols of Christ's Body and Blood. It's only after the elements are transubstantiated that they become really and truly the Body and Blood of Christ, and are no longer bread and wine.
Sunday has long since passed. What say you about the church fathers view of transubstantiation?
Ah, is that where you find the word [symbol] to add to your doctrine regarding the Eucharist?
Where is that word in the scripture (re:Euchrist)?
I thought you were in the 'bible alone' crowd?
Jesus even clarifies to unbelievers it's real (John 6:52-59),
and even when many of his disciples turn to walk away in disbelief (John 6:66) why didn't Jesus then just say, hey, I'm kidding, it's just a 'symbol';
(interesting, btw, Jn6:66 - those who walk away from 'my flesh is true food, and my blood is true drink' - where also do we see those numerals in scripture? coincidence?)
rather Jesus holds firm doubling down asking the Twelve will they also leave?
Paul even affirms it "whoever eats the bread or drinks the cup of the Lord unworthily is guilty of sinning against the body and blood of the Lord"(1 Cor 11:27)
How could one 'sin against Christs body and blood', a particularly serious offence, if it is 'just a symbol' ???
Also notice in John 6:54 even uses the greek verb 'trōgōn' which means to 'to gnaw, munch, crunch' (biblehub.com/greek/5176.htm)
Quote:
Originally Posted by MissKate12
ones you won’t find on a Catholic website
The full text of the fathers writings certainly IS freely available on MANY Catholic websites:
newadvent.org/fathers/
and
catholicculture.org/culture/library/fathers/
are just a couple.
Why do you proffer a false narrative in almost every response?
Ah, is that where you find the word [symbol] to add to your doctrine regarding the Eucharist?
Where is that word in the scripture (re:Euchrist)?
I thought you were in the 'bible alone' crowd?
Jesus even clarifies to unbelievers it's real (John 6:52-59),
and even when many of his disciples turn to walk away in disbelief (John 6:66) why didn't Jesus then just say, hey, I'm kidding, it's just a 'symbol';
(interesting, btw, Jn6:66 - those who walk away from 'my flesh is true food, and my blood is true drink' - where also do we see those numerals in scripture? coincidence?)
rather Jesus holds firm doubling down asking the Twelve will they also leave?
Paul even affirms it "whoever eats the bread or drinks the cup of the Lord unworthily is guilty of sinning against the body and blood of the Lord"(1 Cor 11:27)
How could one 'sin against Christs body and blood', a particularly serious offence, if it is 'just a symbol' ???
Also notice in John 6:54 even uses the greek verb 'trōgōn' which means to 'to gnaw, munch, crunch' (biblehub.com/greek/5176.htm)
The full text of the fathers writings certainly IS freely available on MANY Catholic websites:
newadvent.org/fathers/
and
catholicculture.org/culture/library/fathers/
are just a couple.
Why do you proffer a false narrative in almost every response?
Since you quoted Justin Martyr and Irenaeus, I thought you should also be aware of what other church fathers had to say about the matter. It’s pretty clear that they viewed the bread and fruit of the vine as symbols of Jesus’ Body and blood. The words speak for themselves. There is no need for me to defend them. If you choose to turn a blind eye, there’s nothing I can do about it.
Notice Paul never said whoever eats Christ’s body or drinks His blood. Instead he said, “whoever eats the bread and drinks the cup.” Interesting!
It would really be helpful for you to read this chapter in context. Jesus specified that He has been speaking metaphorically. He said, “The Spirit gives life; the flesh counts for nothing. The words I have spoken to you they are full of the Spirit and life” (John 6:63).
I’m afraid you are reacting just as the Jews did. You are stuck in a physical mindset. They were worried about their next meal so Jesus used the physical to teach a spiritual truth. Those who couldn’t make the leap from the physical to the spiritual left.
Jesus is the bread of life. We eat His flesh and drink His blood when we consume His teachings. teachings. His words are what gives eternal life.
Since you quoted Justin Martyr and Irenaeus, I thought you should also be aware of what other church fathers had to say about the matter. It’s pretty clear that they viewed the bread and fruit of the vine as symbols of Jesus’ Body and blood. The words speak for themselves. There is no need for me to defend them. If you choose to turn a blind eye, there’s nothing I can do about it.
No one is disputing that the bread and wine are symbols of Jesus' Body and Blood. Of course they are!
Quote:
Originally Posted by MissKate12
Notice Paul never said whoever eats Christ’s body or drinks His blood. Instead he said, “whoever eats the bread and drinks the cup.” Interesting!
It's not as "interesting" as you think. The elements retain the appearance of bread and wine, so referring to Christ's Body figuratively as "bread" is perfectly acceptable.
Quote:
Originally Posted by MissKate12
It would really be helpful for you to read this chapter in context. Jesus specified that He has been speaking metaphorically. He said, “The Spirit gives life; the flesh counts for nothing. The words I have spoken to you they are full of the Spirit and life” (John 6:63).
No, Jesus did not specify that He had been speaking metaphorically. In fact, He did just the opposite. When the Jews were confused and began to argue, Jesus doubled down and repeated: "Very truly I tell you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood, you have no life in you. Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise them up at the last day. For my flesh is real food and my blood is real drink. Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood remains in me, and I in them."
As a matter of fact, the word for "eat" that Jesus uses in verse 53 is a different word than He used previously in verse 51. The word used in v. 53 is "τρώγω", which has a more raw animal-like and graphic connotation than "φάγω" from v. 51.
Quote:
Originally Posted by MissKate12
I’m afraid you are reacting just as the Jews did. You are stuck in a physical mindset. They were worried about their next meal so Jesus used the physical to teach a spiritual truth. Those who couldn’t make the leap from the physical to the spiritual left.
Jesus is the bread of life. We eat His flesh and drink His blood when we consume His teachings. teachings. His words are what gives eternal life.
Those quotes are perfectly in line with Catholic theology. Of course if you read them through your biased, anti-Catholic lenses, you can interpret them any way you want. You have to interpret them in the context of what we already know those individuals believed.
Obviously the bread and wine are symbols of Christ's Body and Blood. It's only after the elements are transubstantiated that they become really and truly the Body and Blood of Christ, and are no longer bread and wine.
Why is it we never read of the body and blood of Jesus actually being transubstantiated by a priest anywhere in Scripture?
Since you quoted Justin Martyr and Irenaeus, I thought you should also be aware of what other church fathers had to say about the matter. It’s pretty clear that they viewed the bread and fruit of the vine as symbols of Jesus’ Body and blood. The words speak for themselves. There is no need for me to defend them. If you choose to turn a blind eye, there’s nothing I can do about it.
Notice Paul never said whoever eats Christ’s body or drinks His blood. Instead he said, “whoever eats the bread and drinks the cup.” Interesting!
It would really be helpful for you to read this chapter in context. Jesus specified that He has been speaking metaphorically. He said, “The Spirit gives life; the flesh counts for nothing. The words I have spoken to you they are full of the Spirit and life” (John 6:63).
I’m afraid you are reacting just as the Jews did. You are stuck in a physical mindset. They were worried about their next meal so Jesus used the physical to teach a spiritual truth. Those who couldn’t make the leap from the physical to the spiritual left.
My responses to these would be the same as EscalaMike, above.
Quote:
Originally Posted by MissKate12
Jesus is the bread of life. We eat His flesh and drink His blood when we consume His teachings. teachings. His words are what gives eternal life.
Let me ask you this - is is possible to separate Jesus's Word from His body & spirit?
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.
Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
, and instead contemplate on what it is that we should be 'remembering' : 
