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The Church believes that at the Last Supper Christ gave instructions only to the 12 apostles to do this ceremony. From there it developed that only their successors, the bishops and priests, could give it.
That's a ridiculous attempt to justify the idea that Jesus was referring to the bread and wine as becoming literally Jesus' flesh and blood. Was Jesus literally a piece of bread? What kind of bread? Whole wheat, white, rye, pumpernickel? His reference to being the bread of life was obviously metaphorical and so was his statement about the bread and wine being his flesh and blood.
Yes, cells do die off and the material does get recycled, but to attempt to use that to justify the bread and wine as literally being Jesus flesh and blood goes to show how far people will go to defend their beliefs. Furthermore, if some of Jesus' cells were in everything you ate and drank then you would have to claim that some of the cells of every single person were in every single thing that you ate or drank. I had a glass of green tea at breakfast. Were some of the cells of every single person who has ever lived in that particular glass of green tea? No. Of course not.
Lots of people find true ideas silly when they hear about them.
I do not have the mathematical grounding needed to offer you statistical proof. It is an intuitive and educated guess - one I'm fairly confident in offering. I can tell you that I'm right with regard to the connection between Jesus last breath and the one you just took. We know the number of molecules you breathe, and we know the number of molecules in the whole atmosphere. The rest is 4rd grade arithmetic.
The problem is harder when we're talking about human blood and tissue. What is the total tonnage of material on Earth that is or once was part of a human body? What percentage of that material is in our food? Such figures are not readily available, and I don't have the skill to determine them. However, the number of atoms in a communion waver is so staggeringly large that one can hardly imagine that not one of them was once part of Jesus, Abe Lincoln or Soupy Sales.
I'm not interested in arguing this. Here's what concerns me about all these conversations - they all seem to be about arguing, no one is actually LEARNING anything from what I can tell. No one seems to ever change their minds about anything, or expand their mindset or whatever. I find it distasteful. You can call it "apologetics" if you want to but I'm going to call it "arguing."
Pretty sure the OP doesn't believe in transubstantiation and is not going to change her mind one way or the other no matter how many verses anyone posts.
I think we learn things. I may not agree with the Catholic view, but I understand that's what Catholics believe. I am not interested in arguing with a devout Catholic to try to convince them they are wrong, either. I might be wrong, too.
As a matter of fact, many years ago I went out and bought a book by Karl Keating, a Catholic apologist, because my Catholic friend could not answer the questions I had as to why Catholics believe certain Traditions like Purgatory, Transubstantiation, etc. It was a book written for Catholics to answer fundamentalists (which I am not, but still didn't know the answers) because so many Catholics didn't know enough about their own religion to respond to them when questions were put to them.
It was really informative, made sense, helped me understand Catholicism better, and when I was done, I gave it to Mary, my good Catholic friend.
Lots of people find true ideas silly when they hear about them.
I do not have the mathematical grounding needed to offer you statistical proof. It is an intuitive and educated guess - one I'm fairly confident in offering. I can tell you that I'm right with regard to the connection between Jesus last breath and the one you just took. We know the number of molecules you breathe, and we know the number of molecules in the whole atmosphere. The rest is 4rd grade arithmetic.
The problem is harder when we're talking about human blood and tissue. What is the total tonnage of material on Earth that is or once was part of a human body? What percentage of that material is in our food? Such figures are not readily available, and I don't have the skill to determine them. However, the number of atoms in a communion waver is so staggeringly large that one can hardly imagine that not one of them was once part of Jesus, Abe Lincoln or Soupy Sales.
I think understand your intuitive guess
However I don’t think it is about the literal physical flesh and blood, it has to do with the community and communication...... the idea that Jesus is the word of life (logos)
In the same way that all physical life is connected at a basic level and things are recycled, processed, shared, redistributed so are the spiritual things via preaching and teaching
Joh 3:10**Jesus answered and said unto him, Art thou a master of Israel, and knowest not these things?
Joh 3:11**Verily, verily, I say unto thee, We speak that we do know, and testify that we have seen; and ye receive not our witness.
Joh 3:12**If I have told you earthly things, and ye believe not, how shall ye believe, if I tell you of heavenly things?
at least 5 places:
1 Corinthians 11:23-27
Luke 22:17-20
Matthew 26:17-30
Mark 14:12-25
John 13:1-30
Even before there was a bible, early Christians had it right:
I have read the early church fathers. They echoed the Scriptures, but not one time do they talk about the role of a priest in changing the bread and fruit of the vine into the actual body and blood of Jesus. That did t come from the Scriptures or the ECF’s. In fact, the RCC did not formally set forth the teaching of transubstantiation until the 4th Latern Council in 1215 A.D.
I think we learn things. I may not agree with the Catholic view, but I understand that's what Catholics believe. I am not interested in arguing with a devout Catholic to try to convince them they are wrong, either. I might be wrong, too.
As a matter of fact, many years ago I went out and bought a book by Karl Keating, a Catholic apologist, because my Catholic friend could not answer the questions I had as to why Catholics believe certain Traditions like Purgatory, Transubstantiation, etc. It was a book written for Catholics to answer fundamentalists (which I am not, but still didn't know the answers) because so many Catholics didn't know enough about their own religion to respond to them when questions were put to them.
It was really informative, made sense, helped me understand Catholicism better, and when I was done, I gave it to Mary, my good Catholic friend.
Question: If you were sincerely wrong in believing and practicing a particular doctrine, would you want to know it? If that doctrine you so deeply believed were false, what do you suppose would be the result?
Let me share with you what Jesus had to say about it.
Matthew 15:9
7You hypocrites! Isaiah was right when he prophesied about you, for he wrote,
8‘These people honor me with their lips,
but their hearts are far from me.
9Their worship is a farce,
for they teach man-made ideas as commands from God.’”
“ 12Then the disciples came to him and asked, “Do you realize you offended the Pharisees by what you just said?”
13 Jesus replied, “Every plant not planted by my heavenly Father will be uprooted, 14 so ignore them. They are blind guides leading the blind, and if one blind person guides another, they will both fall into a ditch.”
What does Jesus say will happen to blind guides? What does He say will happen to those who follow them?
Nevertheless it is the way the Church comes about the idea .
The problem with that is that following the doctrine of men makes one’s worship vain.
You know what Jesus said about that.
Matthew 15
7You hypocrites! Isaiah was right when he prophesied about you, for he wrote,
8‘These people honor me with their lips,
but their hearts are far from me.
9Their worship is a farce,
for they teach man-made ideas as commands from God.”
12Then the disciples came to him and asked, “Do you realize you offended the Pharisees by what you just said?”
13Jesus replied, “Every plant not planted by my heavenly Father will be uprooted, 14so ignore them. They are blind guides leading the blind, and if one blind person guides another, they will both fall into a ditch.”
If I’m following the doctrines of men, then I want someone to tell me. I’d prefer to have my feelings hurt than lose my eternal life.
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