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I have read the early church fathers. They echoed the Scriptures, but not one time do they talk about the role of a priest in changing the bread and fruit of the vine into the actual body and blood of Jesus. That did t come from the Scriptures or the ECF’s. In fact, the RCC did not formally set forth the teaching of transubstantiation until the 4th Latern Council in 1215 A.D.
You must not have studied very hard - here are TWO...
Quote:
Justin Martyr, First Apology ch.66 around 150AD https://www.newadvent.org/fathers/0126.htm
"And this food is called among us Εὐχαριστία [the Eucharist], of which no one is allowed to partake but the man who believes that the things which we teach are true, and who has been washed with the washing that is for the remission of sins, and unto regeneration, and who is so living as Christ has enjoined. For not as common bread and common drink do we receive these; but in like manner as Jesus Christ our Saviour, having been made flesh by the Word of God, had both flesh and blood for our salvation, so likewise have we been taught that the food which is blessed by the prayer of His word, and from which our blood and flesh by transmutation are nourished, is the flesh and blood of that Jesus who was made flesh. For the apostles, in the memoirs composed by them, which are called Gospels, have thus delivered unto us what was enjoined upon them; that Jesus took bread, and when He had given thanks, said, This do in remembrance of Me, this is My body; and that, after the same manner, having taken the cup and given thanks, He said, This is My blood;... "
Quote:
Iraneaus or Lyons, around 160AD?, Against Heresies, Book V chapter 2 v.3 - https://www.newadvent.org/fathers/0103502.htm
"When, therefore, the mingled cup and the manufactured bread receives the Word of God, and the Eucharist of the blood and the body of Christ is made, from which things the substance of our flesh is increased and supported, how can they affirm that the flesh is incapable of receiving the gift of God, which is life eternal, which [flesh] is nourished from the body and blood of the Lord, and is a member of Him?— even as the blessed Paul declares in his Epistle to the Ephesians, that we are members of His body, of His flesh, and of His bones. He does not speak these words of some spiritual and invisible man, for a spirit has not bones nor flesh; but [he refers to] that dispensation [by which the Lord became] an actual man, consisting of flesh, and nerves, and bones — that [flesh] which is nourished by the cup which is His blood, and receives increase from the bread which is His body. And just as a cutting from the vine planted in the ground fructifies in its season, or as a grain of wheat falling into the earth and becoming decomposed, rises with manifold increase by the Spirit of God, who contains all things, and then, through the wisdom of God, serves for the use of men, and having received the Word of God, becomes the Eucharist, which is the body and blood of Christ; ..."
The problem with that is that following the doctrine of men makes one’s worship vain.
You know what Jesus said about that.
Matthew 15
7You hypocrites! Isaiah was right when he prophesied about you, for he wrote,
8‘These people honor me with their lips,
but their hearts are far from me.
9Their worship is a farce,
for they teach man-made ideas as commands from God.”
12Then the disciples came to him and asked, “Do you realize you offended the Pharisees by what you just said?”
13Jesus replied, “Every plant not planted by my heavenly Father will be uprooted, 14so ignore them. They are blind guides leading the blind, and if one blind person guides another, they will both fall into a ditch.”
If I’m following the doctrines of men, then I want someone to tell me. I’d prefer to have my feelings hurt than lose my eternal life.
They no doubt don’t feel that they are following the doctrine of men, but of what Christ told the Apostles . The Catholics can just as easily quote those verses to you for leaving them for other teachings
We believe that it is done in remembrance of Christ's atoning sacrifice and that when we receive it we are renewing our baptismal covenants to remember Him and keep His commandments so that we will always have His spirit to be with us. In other words, we do not believe in Transubstantiation.
They no doubt don’t feel that they are following the doctrine of men, but of what Christ told the Apostles . The Catholics can just as easily quote those verses to you for leaving them for other teachings
Yep - Each assembly has a man at the top (head) by design
1Co 15:21**For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead.
1Co 15:22**For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.
Question: If you were sincerely wrong in believing and practicing a particular doctrine, would you want to know it? If that doctrine you so deeply believed were false, what do you suppose would be the result?
Let me share with you what Jesus had to say about it.
Matthew 15:9
7You hypocrites! Isaiah was right when he prophesied about you, for he wrote,
8‘These people honor me with their lips,
but their hearts are far from me.
9Their worship is a farce,
for they teach man-made ideas as commands from God.’”
“ 12Then the disciples came to him and asked, “Do you realize you offended the Pharisees by what you just said?”
13 Jesus replied, “Every plant not planted by my heavenly Father will be uprooted, 14 so ignore them. They are blind guides leading the blind, and if one blind person guides another, they will both fall into a ditch.”
What does Jesus say will happen to blind guides? What does He say will happen to those who follow them?
Um yeah, I've heard those verses before, obviously. Not sure what your point is or how it relates to what I posted.
He communes with everyone who loves God and each other and repents when they fail, Mike, and she does.
Certainly in a sense, this is true. However, in the Catholic Church we commune with Christ in a much more profound way; not just spiritually, but physically.
Quote:
Originally Posted by MysticPhD
Why get so wrapped up in the minutiae of dogma that have no real importance? MQ is right.
I would not consider the doctrine of transubstantiation and the Real Presence of Christ to be mere minutiae or something of no real importance, as the implications of such a doctrine are monumental.
The same can be said about any thread here. No one changes their minds. My hope is that if nothing else, people will study for themselves every aspect of a topic rather than just believe whatever they are told.
You posted this to argue though. That's why I don't go along with it.
Please don't underestimate those who believe differently than you by the way. Don't assume that people are just believing whatever they are told when they disagree with you.
I'm here too but it's to point out the distastefulness of arguing over faith, nothing else. I don't argue over faith issues. It's not that I CAN'T - but I don't think it's productive or glorifying to God so I don't do it.
Just to be clear. I was sprinkled with water over my head when I was an infant. That does not constitute baptism. The term means immerse, submerge, overwhelm. I wasn’t baptized until many years later after hearing the gospel, believing it, and then being immersed in water for the forgiveness of my sins. I was baptized into Christ, not the RCC. The Lord added me to His church.
I understand what you believe.
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