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I'm not interested in arguing this. Here's what concerns me about all these conversations - they all seem to be about arguing, no one is actually LEARNING anything from what I can tell. No one seems to ever change their minds about anything, or expand their mindset or whatever. I find it distasteful. You can call it "apologetics" if you want to but I'm going to call it "arguing."
Pretty sure the OP doesn't believe in transubstantiation and is not going to change her mind one way or the other no matter how many verses anyone posts.
The same can be said about any thread here. No one changes their minds. My hope is that if nothing else, people will study for themselves every aspect of a topic rather than just believe whatever they are told.
Kathryn, Jesus said He would not drink again of the fruit of the vine until He would drink it new with His disciples in His Father’s kingdom. Each time I share in the Supper of the Lord, I know that He is right there with me as promised. He is present!
Where I have a problem is with a priest thinking he is needed to change the bread and fruit of the vine into the actual body and blood of Christ. Not even the Apostles were given the power or authority to do such a thing.
There are about 25 sextillion air molecules in every breath you take. I am no statistician, but some quick arithmetic suggests that Jesus exhaled with his last breath a few of the air molecules that you just now inhaled. That strikes me as profound.
Much of the blood and tissue of Jesus, even allowing for his bodily resurrection, remains here are on Earth today. Cells die off, and the material is expelled and returned to the life cycle. There can be little doubt that you ingest a small part of what was once Jesus' blood and body whenever you drink and eat.
No miracle is needed to explain how you literally eat and drink Jesus. Eating and drinking is intrinsically sacramental. We do it as a ritual in church to remind us.
That's a ridiculous attempt to justify the idea that Jesus was referring to the bread and wine as becoming literally Jesus' flesh and blood. Was Jesus literally a piece of bread? What kind of bread? Whole wheat, white, rye, pumpernickel? His reference to being the bread of life was obviously metaphorical and so was his statement about the bread and wine being his flesh and blood.
Yes, cells do die off and the material does get recycled, but to attempt to use that to justify the bread and wine as literally being Jesus flesh and blood goes to show how far people will go to defend their beliefs. Furthermore, if some of Jesus' cells were in everything you ate and drank then you would have to claim that some of the cells of every single person were in every single thing that you ate or drank. I had a glass of green tea at breakfast. Were some of the cells of every single person who has ever lived in that particular glass of green tea? No. Of course not.
You're probably right; but OP is a baptized Catholic who has fallen away from the Faith. She deserves our prayers, and we know that Christ wants to commune with Her again.
No, I was a sprinkled at birth in the RCC. I wasn’t baptized/immersed in water until I was old enough to understand the gospel. I heard the word, believed it, repented of my sins and was immersed in water for the forgiveness of my sins. That is when I was born again of water and of the Spirit.
Christ communes with true Christians every time they partake of the bread and fruit of the vine, just as He promised. When I partake, I know Jesus is right there with me. It is a time of remembrance for what He did for me.
Matthew 26
29But I say to you, I will not drink of this fruit of the vine from now on until that day when I drink it new with you in My Father’s kingdom.”
Well thanks for that information and I'll pray for her but I am not going to argue with her.
Just to be clear. I was sprinkled with water over my head when I was an infant. That does not constitute baptism. The term means immerse, submerge, overwhelm. I wasn’t baptized until many years later after hearing the gospel, believing it, and then being immersed in water for the forgiveness of my sins. I was baptized into Christ, not the RCC. The Lord added me to His church.
Last edited by MissKate12; 11-06-2021 at 11:45 AM..
No. I just don't see it. I've seen the proof texts, but I just don't buy it.
My disagreement is more about the priest involvement. Where in the Scriptures was it ever taught that a priest would be needed to change the bread and fruit of the vine into the actual body and blood of Jesus? Even the Apostles didn’t do this. There is t a single example of such a thing in God’s word.
My disagreement is more about the priest involvement. Where in the Scriptures was it ever taught that a priest would be needed to change the bread and fruit of the vine into the actual body and blood of Jesus? Even the Apostles didn’t do this. There is t a single example of such a thing in God’s word.
The Church believes that at the Last Supper Christ gave instructions only to the 12 apostles to do this ceremony. From there it developed that only their successors, the bishops and priests, could give it.
The Episcopalian POV: Maybe. If you wanna believe that, you can. If you want to think the Eucharist is just a "remembrance", you can believe that, too. Or anything in between, which is where most of us fall, I think.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Michael Way
Jesus also said he was a gate. He had hinges. And he was literally a lamb as well. Went around going baaa baaa all the time.
89:9.3 (984.2) The ancient social brotherhoods were based on the rite of blood drinking; the early Jewish fraternity was a sacrificial blood affair. Paul started out to build a new Christian cult on “the blood of the everlasting covenant.” And while he may have unnecessarily encumbered Christianity with teachings about blood and sacrifice, he did once and for all make an end of the doctrines of redemption through human or animal sacrifices. His theologic compromises indicate that even revelation must submit to the graduated control of evolution. According to Paul, Christ became the last and all-sufficient human sacrifice; the divine Judge is now fully and forever satisfied.
89:9.4 (984.3) And so, after long ages the cult of the sacrifice has evolved into the cult of the sacrament. Thus are the sacraments of modern religions the legitimate successors of those shocking early ceremonies of human sacrifice and the still earlier cannibalistic rituals. Many still depend upon blood for salvation, but it has at least become figurative, symbolic, and mystic.
My disagreement is more about the priest involvement. Where in the Scriptures was it ever taught that a priest would be needed to change the bread and fruit of the vine into the actual body and blood of Jesus? Even the Apostles didn’t do this. There is t a single example of such a thing in God’s word.
at least 5 places:
1 Corinthians 11:23-27
Luke 22:17-20
Matthew 26:17-30
Mark 14:12-25
John 13:1-30
Even before there was a bible, early Christians had it right:
Quote:
"And this food is called among us Εὐχαριστία [the Eucharist], of which no one is allowed to partake but the man who believes that the things which we teach are true, and who has been washed with the washing that is for the remission of sins, and unto regeneration, and who is so living as Christ has enjoined. For not as common bread and common drink do we receive these; but in like manner as Jesus Christ our Saviour, having been made flesh by the Word of God, had both flesh and blood for our salvation, so likewise have we been taught that the food which is blessed by the prayer of His word, and from which our blood and flesh by transmutation are nourished, is the flesh and blood of that Jesus who was made flesh. For the apostles, in the memoirs composed by them, which are called Gospels, have thus delivered unto us what was enjoined upon them; that Jesus took bread, and when He had given thanks, said, This do in remembrance of Me, this is My body; and that, after the same manner, having taken the cup and given thanks, He said, This is My blood;... "
Justin Martyr, First Apology ch.66 around 150AD https://www.newadvent.org/fathers/0126.htm
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