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Do you not also do the same each time you 'eat His Flesh and drink His blood' as you said in post 86:??
That's a great topic, for another thread - let's stay in focus on this topic/thread.
You didn’t quote all of what I said. We eat and drink His body and blood WHEN WE CONSUME HIS TEACHINGS. I would never say we eat His physical body and drink His physical blood literally. That would be false.
The purpose of partaking of the Lord’s Supper is included in the five verses you posted in support of your view of transubstantiation.
We stare in the Lord’s Supper in remembrance of the sacrifice Jesus made for us at the cross. We do so to show His death till He comes. We are never told to sacrifice Him over and over. Understanding the purpose helps one to understand Jesus did not mean that He wanted us to physically eat His body and drink His blood. What would be the purpose in that? If you can’t answer, I understand. It’s because you can’t, not because it’s off topic.
We're discussing it because it is a significant point of doctrine within the Catholic Church, the largest denomination of Christianity, with a membership of some 1.3 billion people. The fact that you haven't ever heard of it before is immaterial. Even though I think the OP was just looking to denigrate Catholicism (something I have little patience for), I find it refreshing to be talking about something that hasn't already been beaten into the ground in a thousand previous threads. We could also talk about the Immaculate Conception, a doctrine you probably have heard of but almost certainly have a misunderstanding of. Even though I don't believe in it any more than I believe in Transubstantiation, at least I know what it is and don't try to suggest that we shouldn't be discussing it because it's "not mentioned in the Bible." Christians believe a lot of things that aren't explicitly spelled out in the Bible, even though most of them won't admit it.
His blood, however, was shed once for all (Hebrews 10:10). Yet the RCC sacrifices Him daily.
We do not repeatedly nail Jesus to the cross. That is an impossibility anyway as He is now glorified and immortal, and sitting at the right hand of God the Father.
However, His once-for-all sacrifice is made present for us daily.
We're discussing it because it is a significant point of doctrine within the Catholic Church, the largest denomination of Christianity, with a membership of some 1.3 billion people. The fact that you haven't ever heard of it before is immaterial. Even though I think the OP was just looking to denigrate Catholicism (something I have little patience for), I find it refreshing to be talking about something that hasn't already been beaten into the ground in a thousand previous threads. We could also talk about the Immaculate Conception, a doctrine you probably have heard of but almost certainly have a misunderstanding of. Even though I don't believe in it any more than I believe in Transubstantiation, at least I know what it is and don't try to suggest that we shouldn't be discussing it because it's "not mentioned in the Bible." Christians believe a lot of things that aren't explicitly spelled out in the Bible, even though most of them won't admit it.
What happened Katzpur? I remember a few years back we had good conversations, never antagonistic or offensive. In fact, I clearly remember us standing strong together for the necessity of baptism. But it seems now you have nothing good to say where I am concerned. Why? Because I have called out what I see as false teachings in the Mormon religion? Isn’t this supposed to be a debate forum where people discuss their differences? Your comment about my reasons for creating this thread are very judgmental. You don’t know my heart or my reasons. Why are you making everything personal? I’m not trying to denigrate Catholicism. I’m simply showing that the doctrine is not found in Scripture. We may not agree on many things concerning Christianity, but I pray you give some thought to what I’ve written. How about a nice fresh new start? Let’s agree to disagree but keep it friendly. I think that’s how Jesus would want it.
We do not repeatedly nail Jesus to the cross. That is an impossibility anyway as He is now glorified and immortal, and sitting at the right hand of God the Father.
However, His once-for-all sacrifice is made present for us daily.
Im sorry, but the words from the Catholic Catechism say it all. The Scriptures teach us that Jesus wanted us to remember His death by sharing His Supper. He did not ask us to “make His sacrifice present.”
1364 In the New Testament, the memorial takes on new meaning. When the Church celebrates the Eucharist, she commemorates Christ's Passover, and it is made present the sacrifice Christ offered once for all on the cross remains ever present.185 "As often as the sacrifice of the Cross by which 'Christ our Pasch has been sacrificed' is celebrated on the altar, the work of our redemption is carried out."186
1365 Because it is the memorial of Christ's Passover, the Eucharist is also a sacrifice. The sacrificial character of the Eucharist is manifested in the very words of institution: "This is my body which is given for you" and "This cup which is poured out for you is the New Covenant in my blood."187 In the Eucharist Christ gives us the very body which he gave up for us on the cross, the very blood which he "poured out for many for the forgiveness of sins."188
1366 The Eucharist is thus a sacrifice because it re-presents (makes present) the sacrifice of the cross, because it is its memorial and because it applies its fruit: [Christ], our Lord and God, was once and for all to offer himself to God the Father by his death on the altar of the cross, to accomplish there an everlasting redemption. But because his priesthood was not to end with his death, at the Last Supper "on the night when he was betrayed," [he wanted] to leave to his beloved spouse the Church a visible sacrifice (as the nature of man demands) by which the bloody sacrifice which he was to accomplish once for all on the cross would be re-presented, its memory perpetuated until the end of the world, and its salutary power be applied to the forgiveness of the sins we daily commit.189
1367 The sacrifice of Christ and the sacrifice of the Eucharist are one single sacrifice: "The victim is one and the same: the same now offers through the ministry of priests, who then offered himself on the cross; only the manner of offering is different." "And since in this divine sacrifice which is celebrated in the Mass, the same Christ who offered himself once in a bloody manner on the altar of the cross is contained and is offered in an unbloody manner. . . this sacrifice is truly propitiatory."190
1368 The Eucharist is also the sacrifice of the Church. The Church which is the Body of Christ participates in the offering of her Head. With him, she herself is offered whole and entire. She unites herself to his intercession with the Father for all men. In the Eucharist the sacrifice of Christ becomes also the sacrifice of the members of his Body. The lives of the faithful, their praise, sufferings, prayer, and work, are united with those of Christ and with his total offering, and so acquire a new value. Christ's sacrifice present on the altar makes it possible for all generations of Christians
Im sorry, but the words from the Catholic Catechism say it all.
1364 In the New Testament, the memorial takes on new meaning. When the Church celebrates the Eucharist, she commemorates Christ's Passover, and it is made present the sacrifice Christ offered once for all on the cross remains ever present.185 "As often as the sacrifice of the Cross by which 'Christ our Pasch has been sacrificed' is celebrated on the altar, the work of our redemption is carried out."186
1365 Because it is the memorial of Christ's Passover, the Eucharist is also a sacrifice. The sacrificial character of the Eucharist is manifested in the very words of institution: "This is my body which is given for you" and "This cup which is poured out for you is the New Covenant in my blood."187 In the Eucharist Christ gives us the very body which he gave up for us on the cross, the very blood which he "poured out for many for the forgiveness of sins."188
1366 The Eucharist is thus a sacrifice because it re-presents (makes present) the sacrifice of the cross, because it is its memorial and because it applies its fruit: [Christ], our Lord and God, was once and for all to offer himself to God the Father by his death on the altar of the cross, to accomplish there an everlasting redemption. But because his priesthood was not to end with his death, at the Last Supper "on the night when he was betrayed," [he wanted] to leave to his beloved spouse the Church a visible sacrifice (as the nature of man demands) by which the bloody sacrifice which he was to accomplish once for all on the cross would be re-presented, its memory perpetuated until the end of the world, and its salutary power be applied to the forgiveness of the sins we daily commit.189
1367 The sacrifice of Christ and the sacrifice of the Eucharist are one single sacrifice: "The victim is one and the same: the same now offers through the ministry of priests, who then offered himself on the cross; only the manner of offering is different." "And since in this divine sacrifice which is celebrated in the Mass, the same Christ who offered himself once in a bloody manner on the altar of the cross is contained and is offered in an unbloody manner. . . this sacrifice is truly propitiatory."190
1368 The Eucharist is also the sacrifice of the Church. The Church which is the Body of Christ participates in the offering of her Head. With him, she herself is offered whole and entire. She unites herself to his intercession with the Father for all men. In the Eucharist the sacrifice of Christ becomes also the sacrifice of the members of his Body. The lives of the faithful, their praise, sufferings, prayer, and work, are united with those of Christ and with his total offering, and so acquire a new value. Christ's sacrifice present on the altar makes it possible for all generations of Christians
Indeed they do! That's good stuff and thanks for sharing!
What happened Katzpur? I remember a few years back we had good conversations, never antagonistic or offensive. In fact, I clearly remember us standing strong together for the necessity of baptism. But it seems now you have nothing good to say where I am concerned. Why? Because I have called out what I see as false teachings in the Mormon religion? Isn’t this supposed to be a debate forum where people discuss their differences? Your comment about my reasons for creating this thread are very judgmental. You don’t know my heart or my reasons. Why are you making everything personal? I’m not trying to denigrate Catholicism. I’m simply showing that the doctrine is not found in Scripture. We may not agree on many things concerning Christianity, but I pray you give some thought to what I’ve written. How about a nice fresh new start? Let’s agree to disagree but keep it friendly. I think that’s how Jesus would want it.
MissKate, my memory of our past relationship is quite different from yours. As I recall, it all started out pretty much as you have stated, but it quickly deteriorated into something quite different. I really don't have many pleasant memories of our past conversations.
There are a number of posters here on City-Data with whom I disagree as to various points of Christian doctrine, but we have managed to remain on good terms for more than 12 years. That's because we "discuss" our differences. We offer our perspectives on controversial topics without being judgmental or trying to back the other guy into a corner. Beliefs are just opinions, that's all. None of us can prove conclusively that our beliefs are correct and that everyone else's are wrong. If you can accept this and are willing to debate under these conditions, I'm all open to making a fresh start. I'll be delighted if things work out, but not terribly surprised if they don't. We'll just have to see.
Last edited by Katzpur; 11-10-2021 at 01:45 PM..
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