Subjection to your husband (pastors, Islam, people, sermon)

[alanMolstad]

Originally Posted by DaniMae1

How can seek answers from someone who doesn't know them!?

No husband knows it all at the start!

You think there is some sort of "Husband school" in the church that teaches us all the answers we will be asked by our wives?

When the Bible tells wives to "Ask their husbands at home" it does so knowing full well that most of the husbands will get the answer wrong at first....heck some of us never do get our wives questions right...

Who cares?

Thats not the point,
Thats not the reason the Bible commanded the girls to ask their husbands...

Understand now?

[DaniMae1]

Wait a minute alan! You use that 1 single scripture to say a woman must be taught at home about the Bible by her husband....now it also says that women can teach women. I'm guessing that includes spiritual matters. What do they gather round the oldest woman to learn trigonometry?

[Braunwyn]

Originally Posted by alanMolstad

But if she wants to be married to a husband that has a heart filled with joy at being able to put up a shelf for his wife...then you have to remember..
"That guy, is not born"

Think of that my girls for a moment...

That guy is not born. Maybe I need more coffee, because I don't get it.

Great husbands are not born great husbands...
So how do you think we get to be great?


Great husbands are not born great husbands.....

Far , far too many wives think we are either born that way or not..
But we are never born great husbands...

So how did we get to be so great in your eyes?

Taking out the garbage is one of my husband's jobs, for example. Lets say he takes the lead on this task to placate the desire of leadership for you. If he does not take out the garbage, I will. I will not wait for him to do so while my house stinks up. That seems to be what you are suggesting these women do. I will not allow the home to become filthy. My husband, OTOH, will take the lead in this area when he sees me doing it, which does not involve acting like an arse and crying to get what I want. There's also the fact that I chose my husband with great care. I did not marry a man-child.

With that said, I am a great wife due to my life experiences prior to meeting my husband. He doesn't have to mold me. I do not have to mold him into what I want. It was already there before we took our vows, otherwise we would have not married. That you need to be molded by your wife is at the heart of the problem here as I see it. It's lacking in personal responsibility for both involved.

[mari4him]

Originally Posted by alanMolstad

Did not even Christ submit?
Did He not submit to his parents?
He who was God in flesh did truly submit himself to his parents, even knowing that his parents had not earned that respect.
Even knowing that as flawed humans, his parents would make errors.

Yet he submitted to them....why?

The answer is: That submitting is the proper role of a child.

It had nothing to do with the parents doing something first.
It had everything to do with a person seeking to put the Lord's will first in their life, and in doing so, submitting to others is the correct path to walk in..

In the same way wives need to submit to their husbands "as onto the Lord" for truly you cant please one unless you submit to the other....

You keep trying to compare the relationship between children and their parents to that of a husband and wife (which involves neither of them being a child of the other).

First of all... they bible is clear in "honor your parents" and "children obeying their parents". A child's obedience is a command. When the man is told to bring their child in obedience it did not also state for them to bring their wife into obedience.

Second... as far as I know the bible does not offer text as to Jesus upbringing prior to His being 12 at the Feast of the Passover. I mean can you provide text as to was He ever corrected by His parents? Disciplined? Caused to submit against His will to His parents? Even as a toddler.

We do have biblical text of an occasion where He worried His parents, wandering away from them.

Luke 2:41-49 - 41Every year his parents went to Jerusalem for the Feast of the Passover. 42When he was twelve years old, they went up to the Feast, according to the custom. 43After the Feast was over, while his parents were returning home, the boy Jesus stayed behind in Jerusalem, but they were unaware of it. 44Thinking he was in their company, they traveled on for a day. Then they began looking for him among their relatives and friends. 45When they did not find him, they went back to Jerusalem to look for him. 46After three days they found him in the temple courts, sitting among the teachers, listening to them and asking them questions. 47Everyone who heard him was amazed at his understanding and his answers. 48When his parents saw him, they were astonished. His mother said to him, "Son, why have you treated us like this? Your father and I have been anxiously searching for you." 49"Why were you searching for me?" he asked. "Didn't you know I had to be in my Father's house?"

Verse 51 tells us that He then returned with His parents and was obedient to them growing in wisdom and stature. He later begins His ministry (traveling) at what is believed to be 30, crucified at 33.

As a little light hearted humor there is a running joke if you will, that between age 12 (the wandering off from His parents) and age 30 (the commencement of His public ministry) He was grounded for having wandered off.

The point is you cannot compare a child/parent relationship to that of a husband/wife. The two are just not the same and thus provides a very poor argument/analogy.

Jesus also gave a perfect example of submission to the Lord's will in showing us how He did not submit to the error of man above the will of God in how He addressed the Pharisee's and the various different things He did in the course of His ministry which went against the status quo of the time and the will of men. He was not a conformist. He did make waves and He did go against the tide in many instances as He placed the will of God above the will of man. Albeit, in a respectful manner and upon the foundation of God's authority.

Therefore, we see submission (being respectful) does not always equate to or with obedience. Likewise, a wife should remain respectful, however, if obedience means placing her husband's will above that of God's will, the answer should be a resounding no. God's will is always, or should always be, above man's will.

[mzjamiedawn]

Originally Posted by DaniMae1

Wait a minute alan! You use that 1 single scripture to say a woman must be taught at home about the Bible by her husband....now it also says that women can teach women. I'm guessing that includes spiritual matters. What do they gather round the oldest woman to learn trigonometry?

Exactly Dani. Unless I missed it, Alan, you never commented on what a woman should do who is married to an atheist?

[mari4him]

Originally Posted by alanMolstad

Im just saying that girls are different than men are...
Men are to be the guidance and the protectors of the home.

Interesting considering men spend the majority of their time outside of the home working to financially provide for the home while the women are a lot of times at home being the ones running it and performing the majority of duties pertaining to the children. Handling daily discipline matters (though often informing the father when he has arrived home and he then determines if he needs to address it further or not), establishing chores and seeing they are done, assisting with homework, meeting at the school whenever necessary, watching the children while they are playing indoor or outdoors, etc. Seems the role of guidance and protecting is one that is shared by both men and women when it comes to matters of the home.

Originally Posted by alanMolstad

Men and women are made by God to do different things better than the other, and thus the marriage is united and whole.

Agreed somewhat because I know the direction you are coming from with that, however, each human being is created with certain strengths and possesses certain weakness'. In a marriage this united and whole concept comes to play when the two work together in the fullness of their strengths which thus makes up for the weakness in the other. What those individual strengths and weakness' are is as individual to the marriage as it is to the individuals within that marriage.

I.E. A woman may be much more financially savvy than her husband and thus he, recognizing this, allows her to handle the finances in the home. A husband may have hmmm been in the military or something and thus iron clothing really well while the wife either doesn't enjoy ironing or doesn't do it as well and thus he may handle the ironing for the family when needed.

See.. all this gender based delegation of what is domestic and what is not or what a man ought to do and what a woman ought to do eliminates the gift of strengths, talents and skills that individuals may have and how the application of those things better serves the marriage as a whole.

Originally Posted by alanMolstad

Men are better at physical things, or things that require math skills or Bible learning.

Really? Men are better at math skills or bible learning? That's funny because my son stinks at math. He hates it with a passion and it's just not his thing. Meanwhile, my mother is really good in math and it was one of her favorite subjects in school.

And as for bible learning. I don't believe the Holy Spirit, who guides us in all truths as we study the word of God, determines to hold back some bible learning because hmmmmm it's a woman studying. Nor do I believe the Holy Spirit gives an extra dose of understanding because hmmmm it's a man studying. Both men and women have the ability for bible learning. It is not gender based but rather effort based. Putting in the time and the heart to want to read it, study it, learn from it. And interesting enough, in my experience (not as a generalization), women have seemed to be more willing to put that effort in.

My husband and I spoke about it one time in terms of bible studies in which even he stated that bible studies for women tend to be so much more in depth than men's which remain much more superficial. Recently during an 8 week period of bible study that he and I were doing with our church, him with a men's group and me with a woman's group, my study required hours of reading, devotion, and homework between weekly meetings and his did not. My husband said that often this is because they know they have to keep short and simple for the men otherwise they won't do it if it requires too much of a commitment.

Alan, you generalize way too much and you're generalizations just do not make good argument because they are faulty.

Originally Posted by alanMolstad

Women have smaller fingers so they can reach into tight spaces to clean them, and they have nice boobs.

Way to lose much credibility in anything you say. How very sexist of you. You think God is pleased with such comment? You think that is how a man of God should be speaking of or describing women in a public forum among other men and women? As I stated, way to lose much credibility.

Originally Posted by alanMolstad

Thus in that way men and women are equal in that we are both given our gifts and talents by God, but we are also different in that we have different roles in the marriage union.

Yes... but you (as a man) want to dictate what those gifts and talents given by God are and how they are to be used in every marriage as a general.

Every marriage is different and how those gifts and talents are played out in each person's marriage is up to the individual couple to determine (hopefully with God at the head of the marriage), not for Alan to dictate nor to condemn as out of God's will those who do things differently than Alan does in his marriage.

[alanMolstad]

Originally Posted by mzjamiedawn

Exactly Dani. Unless I missed it, Alan, you never commented on what a woman should do who is married to an atheist?

I thought I made it very clear..

But just in case someone missed it -

Wives, submit to your husbands as to the Lord.
For the husband is the head of the wife as Christ is the head of the church, his body, of which he is the Savior.
Now as the church submits to Christ, so also wives should submit to their husbands in everything.

The wife of an atheist should submit to the husband in everything.
This is pleasing to the Lord.

The faith of the husband is moot...
The attitude and willingness of a Christian wife to submit to her husband is not dependent on the faith or actions of her husband.

[alanMolstad]

Originally Posted by DaniMae1

No I believe it is only talking about during church services ! Once outside the church service it is fair game. You reasoning is not logical.

It makes no sense to ask someone for advice who is clueless.

Paul was addressing girls that talked too much during church.
His command that the girls ask their husbands at home was twofold,

First: is helped end the chaos that the church service had sank down into.
Second: it was a great way for husbands and wives to draw closer spiritually.

Paul never said that the husband would know all the answers.
Paul never said that a husband needed to know all the answers.

The reason he did not command the husbands to be experts in the faith before they allow their wives to question them, is that there are far more important issues being introduced by Paul than just helping form noisy wives learn a bit of Bible Trivia.

Husbands get better at answering Bible questions, if they are challenged.

A husband that is never asked about spiritual matters is not going to need to study the text, nor will he be any help at all in the future should a spiritual crisis develop in the family.

That is why, for the advancement of the husband in the faith, a wife should prove herself a good and fitting "helper" and toss a few bible questions his way when they get home and can talk freely.

So, pay attention girls to this next answer:

QUESTION: Why ask a husband for advice about matters of Faith if he is clueless?

ANSWER: Because that is the role of a true "Helper" in the marriage partnership

[Braunwyn]

Originally Posted by alanMolstad

"If he does not take out the garbage, I will."
Better get used to doing that then.

It amazes me how little you think of men. Or, perhaps, you should not generalize your personality onto all males. Your wife is not your mother. She did not give birth to you. It is not her responsibility to teach you how to be an adult. You should have figured that about before you married. Gosh, if you are a typical guy, it's no wonder divorce rates are so high.

[alanMolstad]

Originally Posted by DaniMae1

B.S. Children don't submit out of love! They submit so they don't get in trouble!

I do not believe that Jesus submitted to his parents out of fear of getting a lickin'

And likewise I for instance, loved my mom and dad with all my heart.