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June would like to know why Betsey is referring to herself in the third person.
In a word: Yes.
(And she'll explain why.)
Sometime when I'm posting June, it's like an outer body experience if I may. The Spirit takes over and I'm just a vehicle that's being used to convey His message of Salvation. Sometimes I'm posting and I'm aware that I am sitting here typing away. And at other times, my children would walk into the room, come and hug me and ask, "Mommy, why are you crying"? It's at those times more so than none, I believe, without intentionally doing so, that I address my self as a "third party", I believe.
... going for a walk, in the spirit so absolutely beautifully expressed HERE-
BetseyLane, to you, Old Lab and new G-Shepherd, and the pluralistic translation miracles ....
I don't think a non-believer can answer this question, or else they'd be believers.
I suppose the standard answer would be some sort of miracle, but those are sometimes explained away - even by Christians.
Without the Spirit of God living in our heart, one can not understand the things of God.....
Therefore the one who has not the Spirit of God can not explain something they have not experience!!
1Corinthians 2:7-14
But we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery, the hidden wisdom which God ordained before the ages for our glory,
which none of the rulers of this age knew; for had they known, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory.
But as it is written:
"Eye has not seen, nor ear heard, nor have entered into the heart of man the things which God has prepared for those who love Him."
But God has revealed them to us through His Spirit. For the Spirit searches all things, yes, the deep things of God.
For what man knows the things of a man except the spirit of the man which is in him? Even so no one knows the things of God except the Spirit of God.
Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the Spirit who is from God, that we might know the things that have been freely given to us by God.
These things we also speak, not in words which man's wisdom teaches but which the Holy Spirit teaches, comparing spiritual things with spiritual.
But the natural man does not receive the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; nor can he know them, because they are spiritual discerned.
Before Christ came, God's plan of salvation was hidden. But now it is known to believers and better understood by them the more they grow in the Lord. We are grateful that God ordained this plan for our salvation.
The Holy Spirit knows completely the things of God and His intentions for humankind. The Spirit is thus the effective channel through whom we may receive God's revelation. He has revealed God by inspiring the Scripture and He continues to help us understand scriptural truths.
No one knows the hidden secrets of another person, the things known only by that person. In like manner things of God are known only by the Spirit of God. The Holy Spirit teaches all the words of Scripture. How high a regard ought we, then, to retain for them. He also reveals spiritual truth and gives the appropriate words to express that truth.
The natural man, here, the person who trusts in his or her own earthly wisdom and takes no account of God's help. Such a person has neither the will nor the power to know true wisdom from God. Spiritually discern, examined with the assistance of the Holy Spirit.
I don't think a non-believer can answer this question, or else they'd be believers.
Quote:
Originally Posted by esselcue
It's not a matter of not wanting to believe...but it never happened.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Betsey Lane
May I ask a few questions of anyone? Particularly unbelievers?
Have you ever "seen" wind?
You don't believe in the Giver of the Gift, but you are ready to believe that the gift is yours for the taking? How much greater is the Giver of the gift than the gift itself? And like the wind, you know it exist, even if you can't see it!!
It requires something! It requires BELIEF!!
You believe that the wind exist right? Right! I've never seen it, but I know it's exist! I believe it exist. I've never seen the Holy Spirit, but I believe He exist! I know He exist!
LORD JESUS CHRIST!!!
It seems you have asked the above question stating that you are particularly interested in hearing from nonbelievers. As such, June felt somewhat compelled to respond. She felt even more compelled given the fact that you posted this on the Christianity forum, as opposed to "another" forum. As well, thus far, no "nonbelievers" have responded, so since the spirit moved her, (pun intended) June thought she would.
June thinks that both esselcue and Richio have given fairly accurate responses. What June is curious about, however, is your OP in the context of what Richio said, given the fact that you posted, above, that you were not always a believer. Therefore, June can't help but ask you: Then why don't you already know the answer to your own question? (And she truly is not asking that with any disrespect at all.) --Because June has always said that part of the difficulty is that believers don't understand the minds of nonbelievers, and visa versa. --But then again, it would seem that you did, after all, answer: You said that it comes down to "believing." Personally, June's answer would have been that it comes down to a matter of faith, but then, what does June know?
She knows this much: It doesn't come down to a matter of simply acknowledging that she can't see the wind despite the fact that she knows it exists. June wishes she could give you a different answer, and thereby make you happy, but in all honesty, she can't. As well, the individual who said that we cannot see pain made a good point. June has experienced pain. She knew it was real, despite her being unable to see it. Likewise, there exists emotional pain. June cannot see emotional pain (her own or other's) however she can "see" it in having the capacity for empathy (feeling another person's pain) or in having the emotional capability to affectively access her own angst. But most of all, June has never been one who felt she needed any sort of physical "proof" of either God or the Holy Spirit's existence. June would hardly (in June being June) be so foolish as to either want, or expect that. So at the end of the day, one has to ask themselves: How do we know what we know? How do we "know" what we know?
June sees many things, and June "sees" many things. (Those nonphysical emotions; both pain and gladness, sorrow and joy.) June knows some things, and June "knows" some things. (Again, the means by which a person is able to perceive, intuit.) But even given whatever June has had the capacity to experience, how is she, or others, to "connect the dots" in your OP, (as you have) such that she could sit here at her computer and write: "Yup. Based on June's experience, the Holy Spirit is..."
She can't.
--Actually, in her own "June way" she supposes she could, but she's not so sure that you or anyone else would care to hear her thoughts on the matter, at the same time accepting her nonbelief. Both pain and gladness, sorrow and joy come at a cost. So too, belief and nonbelief. The inter-connection of those seemingly opposing, contradictory opposites is no doubt a meager start in answering your OP. But rest assured: You cannot go from asking about a nonbeliever's inability to see the wind, to somehow expecting them to (logically? reasonably? perceptively?) equate that with the Holy Spirit. Nope. People don't just go from A -----> Z. (Faith and doubt aren't necessarily mutually exclusive.) June does not know why some people believe, or have the capacity for faith, and others seemingly do not. -But with that in mind, she has done her best to respond to your OP, (sole, lone nonbelieving poster thus far on this thread) as best she could.
I asked the question in all fairness June, knowing that each and everyone is an individual: Plain an simple. That I myself was not always a believer. In my knowing, my own answer to that question, does'nt have any bearings to why you are not a believer. Therefore, I cannot know the answer to your question. My answer was for me and your answer is for you.
Pain is to you, what pain is to June. Pain is to me, what pain is to Betsey. I can't then turn around and say I see wind and you in turn ask what does it look like, and I respond the same colors as the rainbow and knowing you are'nt a believer expect you to believe me. No, therefore the appropriate question would be for me to ask: What are the proofs that you need to believe the wind exist? When you can feel it, hear it, know the sound of it?
And yes, from a non-believer perspective, each individually, because everyone is a unique individual. And by the way, you've done a marveolous job explaining why. That's your................. final answer and I can respect that.
I asked the question in all fairness June, knowing that each and everyone is an individual: Plain an simple. That I myself was not always a believer. In my knowing, my own answer to that question, does'nt have any bearings to why you are not a believer. Therefore, I cannot know the answer to your question. My answer was for me and your answer is for you.
Pain is to you, what pain is to June. Pain is to me, what pain is to Betsey. I can't then turn around and say I see wind and you in turn ask what does it look like, and I respond the same colors as the rainbow and knowing you are'nt a believer expect you to believe me. No, therefore the appropriate question would be for me to ask: What are the proofs that you need to believe the wind exist? When you can feel it, hear it, know the sound of it?
And yes, from a non-believer perspective, each individually, because everyone is a unique individual. And by the way, you've done a marveolous job explaining why. That's your................. final answer and I can respect that.
Faith has always been meant to be answered with (a) TRUST, and yes, how much more positioning and competition can there be between I and U? Or?
June and Betsey, and .... I do sit here at my computer between laughing and "Wein-Achten" (Katzenfreund, I send you the gentlest of Snowflakes, whenever I find a difference in addressing U as singular and/or plural).
Last edited by lwowl; 12-15-2008 at 09:23 AM..
Reason: missing H for ... who.mmmmmmmmmmmmm
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Deep winter evening, lone churchbell ringing ...
Because...
as best she could.
No belief needed, but knowing FAITH ....
