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Because the term "Firstborn" is used in the bible to talk about people that are clearly not the firstborn, the term only means the "Preeminent" one.*
Thus it is totally correct to say that Jesus is preeminent over all of God's creation because he is "Superior" to all of God's creation because he and he alone was never created.
(* "For I am a father to Israel, And Ephraim is My firstborn"..and, "And Joseph called the name of the firstborn Manasseh"...for both Ephraim and his brother Manasseh are called the "Firstborn")
King David was designated "firstborn" but he was the youngest so this first-born was not necessarily the oldest child. First-born referred not to birth order but to rank. The first-born possessed the inheritance and leadership, "Preeminence"
Once again Fundy, you and I are in agreement.
Either you are getting a lot smarter being around me, or ...well...yeah Im going to stick with that first answer. You are getting smarter...
You did not use one single Scripture to back up your claims, as I requested you to. You relied on your own reasoning and on the reasoning of trinitarians before you. Your claim that God is greater than Jesus because of his position has no Scriptural backing. If it did, I could show you the Scripture where it says that, but since it doesn't neither of us can. You claim Jesus is never referred to using a feminine word in the Bible, yet I have clearly given you 2 Scriptures in which he was referred to as Wisdom of God.
1 Corinthians 1:24: "however, to those who are the called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God and the wisdom of God."
1 Corinthians 1:30 "You are partners with Christ Jesus because of God. Jesus has become our wisdom sent from God. . ." (God's Word Translation)
Even God is described with a feminine word:
1 John 4:8: "God (masculine) is Love (feminine).
I will answer my first question to you via Scripture since you were unable: Why did Jesus say "the Father is Greater than I?" Here is the answer - from the Scriptures (and NOT my own reasoning):
John 20:17 - “Stop clinging to me. For I have not yet ascended to the Father. But be on your way to my brothers and say to them, ‘I am ascending to my Father and YOUR Father and to my God and YOUR God.”
At this, I will not reply to this thread anymore. I leave you in peace.
“I continue mentioning YOU in my prayers, that the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory, may give YOU a spirit of wisdom and of revelation in the accurate knowledge of him” - Ephesians 1:17 (bold text mine)
To put the Scripture at John 20:17 in a logical form:
1. Jesus said "My (his) God and YOUR (our) God."
2. Therefor Jesus is NOT our God, but the one of whom he spoke of is our God.
The definition of God (from dictionary.com) - the one Supreme Being, the creator and ruler of the universe.
Therefor, Jesus' words at John 20:17 could say: "I am ascending to My CREATOR and YOUR CREATOR."
Consider two Scriptures as more evidence that Jesus also had a God (that is a superior authority who created him)
Matthew 27:46: “E´li, E´li, la´ma sa·bach·tha´ni?” that is, “My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?” Who was he crying out to? Who was his God?
Revelation 3:12: “The one that conquers—I will make him a pillar in the temple of my God, and he will by no means go out [from it] anymore, and I will write upon him the name of my God and the name of the city of my God, the new Jerusalem which descends out of heaven from my God, and that new name of mine.” Amazing! In this one verse alone the immortal Jesus Christ, elevated to the right hand of God in heaven, called his Father Jehovah, ‘my God’ not once, but four times!
As a human, he is like me then. I pray to the Father. The Father is greater than I.
If Jesus were to show that he understands me and what my life is like, then he too has to share my ability to pray to the Father.
Had Jesus not prayed to the Father than I would always have some doubt that Jeus was human or that he really knew what my life is like.
So the Father is Greater (in position) than the Son.
But is the Father "better" than the Son?......no! The Father is equal to the Son in nature. Both the ather and the Son are equally God Almighty
The WORD was with God The WORD was God...
This means that the WORD was with God almighty, and that whatever the God almighty is, so to is the WORD...
The Father is not more God than the Son, as both are always equal in nature.
In John 14:28, Jesus says:
Ye have heard how I said to you, I go away, and come again to you. If ye loved me, ye would rejoice, because I said, I go to the Father: for my Father is greater than I. KJV
What's so interesting here is the fact that Jesus doesn't say that the Father is BETTER than him which would have been a total denial of his equality with the Father. The best analogy I can use is the President of the United States. He is greater than all of us because of his title and office position. Jesus is referring to the Father being greater than him in the sense of the Father's position in heaven.
The Greek word translated for "greater" is meizon. It does not mean greater in the sense of a higher type of being, but rather greater in the sense of position or authority. This is the meaning cited by modern Greek lexicons, and is exampled by dozens of Biblical and extra-Biblical sources.
Jesus even repeats the phrase, "A servant is not greater than his Master," twice in John 13:16 and John 15:20. The same Greek word meizon occurs in each of these verses. No one would suggest that a servant is a lesser being than his Master. A Master is "greater" than a servant because he occupies a position of greater status, dignity, and authority. If we let these other examples guide us, Jesus is saying that the Father is "greater" because the Father's position in Heaven is one of greater dignity and authority than the Son occupies on earth.
Therefore, this meaning, then, makes clear why the disciples should rejoice. The Son is returning to the right hand of the Father, to the glory He had with the Father before His existence on earth (John 17:5). He had voluntarily humbled Himself in coming to earth (Philippians 2:6), taking the form of a servant (doulos, the same word Jesus uses in John 13:16 and 15:20). Now Jesus was returning to the Father to regain His former glory, where He could accomplish all the wonderful things promised to the disciples in His final conversation with them.
Regarding 1 Corinthians 11:3,
But I would have you know, that the head of every man is Christ; and the head of the woman isthe man; and the head of Christ is God.
Since some Christians use this verse to prove God the Father as superior to Christ "in the same way" that Christ is superior to every man, it must also accept that "in the same way" a husband is superior to his wife. Once again we see that context argues for a positional superiority - for according to Paul, God's plan is one of order. The order is in terms of authority, not essential being. The husband is "head" of his wife in terms of spiritual authority, just as God the Father is "head" of Christ in the same manner.
God is Greater than Jesus positionally in the Godhead in terms of God-The Father, God-the Son, and God-the Holy spirit, but all three are DIVINE making them all equal, none of them being one in the same, but three distinct person who make up that ONE GODHEAD contrary to what many JWs think the trinity is.
It's interesting that Jesus never said that the Father was better than Him. In other words, I am greater than both of my two sons because positionally I am their father, but since my sons and I are human, that doesn't make me better than them.
Revelation 3:14: "And unto the angel of the church of the Laodiceans write; These things saith the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of the creation of God;" (KJV)
Jesus Christ, God? | MagnifyJehovah.com (http://magnifyjehovah.com/index.php/2009/05/14/jesus-christ-god - broken link)
The Greek word "arche" that’s translated into English for beginning is the same Greek word translated in Colossians 1:18, Revelation 3:14 and John 1:1. The word “beginning,“ arche, in this instance is not used as the result of God’s creation but the cause of God’s creation. This is the same Greek word we use as a prefix in the word “architect.” Isn’t an architect one who designs or creates buildings? So it now makes sense why Jesus is the beginning of creation because He is the efficient cause of the creation, the head because He is BEFORE all things and all things were created through Him and for Him. So the text could read "the originator of God's creation". This interpretation agrees with John 1:3 Hebrews 11:3.
yes, "wisdom" can be female... But Christ can not. any verse looking to the coming of the Christ is always male.. Always. case closed.
.
This is an important lesson to learn.
My guess is that there are plenty of Bible verses that we might find people attempting to twist into teaching one error after another.
But if along the way you notice that the person in the Text they are talking about is female?
Then its not about Jesus.
Cant be, the bible is very clear when it speaks to the comming Christ.
The Bible does not want us looking for a female Christ to come.
This is why we know for sure that Jesus is the Christ that was said to one day appear.
The Bible always predicted a male Christ was coming, and he did come.
Had the Bible even once predicted a female Christ , then there is no way Jesus is the Christ.
If Jesus has left even one small verse unfulfilled then he is not the Christ at all, but a lier.
Last edited by alanMolstad; 06-03-2009 at 05:56 PM..
There is no mention of a triune God in the Hebrew Scriptures (Old Testament), and modern day Jews, considered the chosen people of the one true God in the Hebrew Scriptures, do not today and have never worshiped a triune God. The trinity has however been a part of pagan religions since the days of the very first pagan religion founded by Nimrod, the mighty hunter in opposition to God. Even the Egyptians had a triune God in Osiris, Horus and Isis. And yet, the trinity has been taught as the core of “Christianity” for nearly 1700 years since it was first introduced by the Council of Nicaea in 325 C.E. It was of such great importance to these so-called Christian religions that many were executed simply for not believing it (such as Servetus), and many others who refused to believe it (such as Sir Isaac Newton) were forced to keep silent out of fear. Consider also that the same religions who originated the trinity have engaged in terrible wars and crusades, killing millions. They have allowed permissive attitudes to enter their churches, and have paid billions of dollars for child molestation by thier clergy. Is this the behavior of true Christians?
“There is also the closely parallel recognition on the part of historians of dogma and systematic theologians that when one does speak of an unqualified Trinitarianism, one has moved from the period of Christian origins to, say, the last quadrant of the 4th century. It was only then that what might be called the definitive Trinitarian dogma ‘One God in three Persons’ became thoroughly assimilated into Christian life and thought … it was the product of 3 centuries of doctrinal development”
- New Catholic Encyclopedia, Volume XIV, Page 295
To introduce trinitarian doctrine into the Bible is to add confusion and contradiction to order and harmony. God is not a God of confusion. (1 Corinthians 14:33) He is not a mystery. It is clear from the Scriptures that he wants us to understand who he is. We would ask that the proponents of the trinity answer the following thirty two questions. Any who take up this challenge must answer using the Holy Scriptures as their only source of information, and not their own reasonings or the reasonings of other trinitarian theologians. We will NOT debate with you if you use anything other than the Scriptures to answer.
If Jesus is God…
1. How could he become a man, since God is not a man? (Numbers 23:19; Hosea 11:9; Matthew 1:25; Matthew 8:20)
2. How could he be called ‘the firstborn of all creation’ and the ‘beginning of the creation by God’ if God had no beginning? (1 Chronicles 16:36; Psalm 90:2; Colossians 1:15; Revelation 3:14; Proverbs 8:22-30)
3. How could he die, since God cannot die? ( Habakkuk 1:12; Luke 23:46)
4. Who did he pray to? (Matthew 26:39; Mark 14:35, 36; Luke 6:12)
5. Why did Satan call him ‘Son of God’ and not ‘God’? Wouldn’t Satan have known who he really was? (Matthew 4:6)
6. Why did he tell Satan that only God was to be worshiped, and not himself? (Matthew 4:8-10)
7. Who’s name did he tell us to sanctify? His? Or his Fathers? (Matthew 6:9)
8. Why didn’t he say only those doing ‘my’ (his) will would enter the kingdom? (Matthew 7:21)
9. Why did the demons also call him ‘Son of God’ and not ‘God?’ Wouldn’t they have known his true nature? (Matthew 8:29)
10. Who did the people who saw him heal a paralytic child give praise to? Him or God? (Matthew 9:8)
11. How could he (Jesus) not know when Armageddon would occur, and yet tell us that God knows? (Mark 13:32)
12. What did the disciples on the boat call him, after he quieted the storm? God or God’s Son? (Matthew 14:33)
13. Why didn’t Peter call him God, instead of ‘Son of the living God’ when asked who he thought Christ was? (Matthew 16:13)
14. Why did the chief priests of the Sanhedrin attempt to get Jesus to blaspheme by calling himself ‘Son of God’ and not ‘God?’ (Matthew 26:63)
15. When he was mocked by the priests at his execution, who did they say he claimed to be? God or God’s Son? (Matthew 27:43)
16. Who did the army officer at his execution say he was? God or God’s Son? (Matthew 27:54)
17. Who gave him authority? Who is greater? The one who gives authority, or the one who receives it? (Matthew 9:6-8; Matthew 28:18; John 5:27; John 14:28; John 17:1, 2)
18. Why would he say “Abba (papa)…remove this cup from me. Yet not what I want, but what you want?” (Mark 14:36) italics ours
19. How could he be tempted to sin by the Devil, since God cannot sin? (Luke 4:1, 2; James 1:13)
20. Of what point would it be for Satan to offer the creator of the universe human kingdoms in exchange for worship? (Luke 4:5-8)
21. How could he be God and be with God at the same time? (John 1:1)
22. How could no man ever see God, and yet see Jesus? (Exodus 33:20; John 1:18; John 5:37)
23. What did he say his food was? To do his own will? To finish his own work? (John 4:34)
24. Who taught him? Who gave him the initiative? (John 8:28)
25. Why would he say that his glory was nothing compared to his Father if they were both equally God? (John 8:54)
26. Who commanded him to speak? Himself? (John 12:49)
27. Who did he glorify? Who gave him the work? Did he give it to himself? (John 17:4)
28. How could he have a God? Who was his God? (Matthew 27:46; John 20:17; Ephesian 1:17; Revelation 3:12)
29. Why would Peter say that “God was with him (Jesus)?” Shouldn’t Peter have instead said that he (Jesus) was God? (Acts 10:38)
30. If he (Jesus) and God are equal, how could God be Christ’s head? (1 Corinthians 11:3)
31. Who resurrected him on the third day after his death? (Romans 10:9; 1 Corinthians 15:3, 4; 1 Corinthians 15:15)
32. To whom did he offer himself as a sacrifice? (Ephesians 5:2)
Last edited by jehovahsservant; 06-03-2009 at 06:45 PM..
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