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But isn't this directed towards those who put their faith in Christ.
The epistle is written to (directed towards) believers, but this verse is about all mankind. All die in Adam. Likewise, all will be made alive in Christ (through Christ, by following Christ, by putting their faith in Christ). Note it does not say "All [who are] in Christ will be made alive" though many people read it that way and I did as well for most of my life.
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1 Cor. 15:23 But each in his own order: Christ, the first fruits; afterward, at His coming, the people of Christ. Then comes the end, when He hands over the kingdom to God the Father when He abolishes all rule and all authority puts all His enenies under His feet.
You see two orders, I see three orders of people being made alive in Christ.
1. Christ
2. Those who are Christ's at His coming (1st resurrection)
3. Enemies subjected to Christ and put under His feet.
Don't you find it strange that it would say that each will be made alive in his own order, and then only one order of humanity besides Christ is being made alive?
What's happening is that Christ is the first fruits. Second, relatively few are made alive and raised in 1st resurrection at His coming. Thrid, the masses of humanity are made alive after the 2nd resurrection. When that is fulfilled all will have died in Adam. All will have been made alive in Christ. All things will be under His feet. All will be subjected to Christ as Christ is subjected to the Father. God will be all in all.
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The verse says that those who are redeemed are the "people of Christ" while God's enemies (anyone who is opposed to Him) will be placed under his feet. Wouldn't that mean that not all would be redeemed?
No. If all are redeemed through faith in Christ, all will be under His feet. All will be subjected to him. God will be all in all. Christ will have taken away the sins of the world. The last enemy death will have been destroyed, swallowed up in life.
Notice that it does not say that only His enemies will be under His feet. It says all will be under His feet. Under Christ's feet is a good place to be.
1 Corinthians 15:26 The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death. 27 For he hath put all things under his feet. But when he saith all things are put under [him, it is] manifest that he is excepted, which did put all things under him.
Why will the last enemy, death, be destroyed? BECAUSE God has put all things under Christ's feet.
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True, but then how do you reconcile this verse with Romans 8. You would need to read the whole thing, but a general synopsis would state that there "is no condemnation for those in Christ Jesus". Pay special attention to verse 9 and 10: "You, however, are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, since the Spirit of God lives in you. But if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he does not belong to Him. Now if Christ is in you, the body is dead because of sin, but the Spirit is life because of righteousness". If you read the whole thing, it would seem to state that only those who have rejected the flesh and embraced Christ can have the Spirit, which is the only way they can belong to God; those who are in the flesh are not His. Wouldn't that seem to state that there are people God is willing to reject?
Yes, I agree with everything you wrote. None of it contradicts God saving all mankind. It only sets the conditions on being saved and not being under condemnation any longer. In order for all to be saved, all must fulfill the conditions. I can show you plenty of people whom God rejected that He later saved. They're scattered all over scripture. For example, Lamentations 3.
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Emphasize the "might have" part.
1. If God says "He might have mercy on all" then why do so many people say "God will certainly not have mercy on all"
2. Statements of the form "So and so did X so that Y might happen" require the subjunctive mood in greek grammar (I can find you a link if you need it or you can google it) which is translated "might" or "may" or "should" even though Y is certain to occur or even has already occurred.
Here are some examples to prove this point. Each of these verses is of the form "X was done so that Y might occur". None of them mean "maybe Y will occur". In many of them Y has already occurred.
John 10:17 Therefore doth my Father love me, because I lay down my life, that I might take it again.
John 15:25 But this cometh to pass, that the word might be fulfilled that is written in their law, They hated me without a cause.
John 17:3 And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.
John 18:9 That the saying might be fulfilled, which he spake, Of them which thou gavest me have I lost none.
John 19:28 After this, Jesus knowing that all things were now accomplished, that the scripture might be fulfilled, saith, I thirst.
Ephesians 6:13 Wherefore take unto you the whole armour of God, that ye may be able to withstand in the evil day, and having done all, to stand.
There are many many more examples in scripture.
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Second of all, doesn't this verse refer to Israel in the final days?That God, in His love, will save the Jews, who have rejected the Messiah and have had their hearts hardened, and bring them back into the loving relationship they were called to have in the beginning. I don't think this verse has spiritual implications for us Gentiles.
The chapter as a whole is about both Jews and Gentiles. The overall theme is that God has not permanently cast away those whom He blinded. The blinded Jews will be unblinded when the fulness of the Gentiles is come in.
Compare to Ezekiel 16. The Jews God is speaking to will be restored and received by God when Sodom is restored, saved and received along with them. Obviously those of Sodom whom God "took as I saw fit" can not be restored until the 2nd resurrection since they are dead and will not rise in the resurrection of the just.
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This one is pretty self explanatory. No one will be saved except by faith in Christ. Doesn't this hurt the universalist stance?
Not in the least. I believe that not one soul will be saved apart from coming to Christ and following Him. I believe all will be saved "in Christ" because all will come to Christ.
Isaiah 45:22 Look unto me, and be ye saved, all the ends of the earth: for I am God, and there is none else. 23 I have sworn by myself, the word is gone out of my mouth in righteousness, and shall not return, That unto me every knee shall bow, every tongue shall swear. 24 Surely, shall one say, in the LORD have I righteousness and strength: even to him shall men come; and all that are incensed against him shall be ashamed. 25 In the LORD shall all the seed of Israel be justified, and shall glory.
1. God commands the whole earth to look to Him for salvation.
2. God says that His word will not return void. (will His command in verse 22 return void?)
3. God declares that all will bow and swear to Him.
4. Surely they will say "In the LORD have I righteousness and strength" (that's faith and explains in what sense all will bow to God)
5. To Him shall all men come (I believe that)
6. Those who hate God will be ashamed (shame is used of humility and recognition of sin in many cases)
7. All the seed of Israel will be justified in Christ. (the seed of Israel are those born again of His spirit. This has nothing to do with being a physical Jew).
Last edited by Thy Kingdom Come; 06-19-2009 at 12:49 PM..
The epistle is written to (directed towards) believers, but this verse is about all mankind. All die in Adam. Likewise, all will be made alive in Christ (through Christ, by following Christ, by putting their faith in Christ). Note it does not say "All [who are] in Christ will be made alive" though many people read it that way and I did as well for most of my life.
You see two orders, I see three orders of people being made alive in Christ.
1. Christ
2. Those who are Christ's at His coming (1st resurrection)
3. Enemies subjected to Christ and put under His feet.
Don't you find it strange that it would say that each will be made alive in his own order, and then only one order of humanity besides Christ is being made alive?
What's happening is that Christ is the first fruits. Second, relatively few are made alive and raised in 1st resurrection at His coming. Thrid, the masses of humanity are made alive after the 2nd resurrection. When that is fulfilled all will have died in Adam. All will have been made alive in Christ. All things will be under His feet. All will be subjected to Christ as Christ is subjected to the Father. God will be all in all.
No. If all are redeemed through faith in Christ, all will be under His feet. All will be subjected to him. God will be all in all. Christ will have taken away the sins of the world. The last enemy death will have been destroyed, swallowed up in life.
Notice that it does not say that only His enemies will be under His feet. It says all will be under His feet. Under Christ's feet is a good place to be.
1 Corinthians 15:26 The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death. 27 For he hath put all things under his feet. But when he saith all things are put under [him, it is] manifest that he is excepted, which did put all things under him.
Why will the last enemy, death, be destroyed? BECAUSE God has put all things under Christ's feet..
The amazing part is that it doesn't contradict the elect. I love these verses!
Nero - I believe the reason why Revelation does not go past the ages into eternity is because John said that he was "In the Day of the Lord" the things that he was seeing and was told to write pertained to the "Day of the Lord" "the Lords Day" which is where everything is happening to bring about God being all in all. People seem to think it relates to John seeing the vision on Sunday, I have thought about that and don't believe that the Lords Day refers to Sunday. (Acts 2:20, 1 cor 1:8)
He does not mention eternity because he was being shown "The Day of the Lord" - thats why when in after the lambs wife - the new jerusalem - the kings and priests have been resurrected and the murderers, liars etc have there part in the lake of fire - there is work to do for those kings and priests, (they don't get to sit around looking down from heaven commenting on what a shame all those deceived people are burning in hell and they are playing harps walking streets of gold) the nations are healed not eternally tormented.
Universalists do not believe that there is salvation outside of Jesus Christ, we do not believe that there are not consequences for sin, we just don't believe that the consequences of sin is eternal death. That was never promised. Also Adam brought death to all men, Christ will bring life to all men.
Amen meekrat. The law itself promises the opportunity for salvation out from within the full curse of the law in Deuteronomy 30 "When all these things are come upon thee, the blessing and the curse (Deut chapters 28 & 29)..."
Nero - I believe the reason why Revelation does not go past the ages into eternity is because John said that he was "In the Day of the Lord" the things that he was seeing and was told to write pertained to the "Day of the Lord" "the Lords Day" which is where everything is happening to bring about God being all in all. People seem to think it relates to John seeing the vision on Sunday, I have thought about that and don't believe that the Lords Day refers to Sunday. (Acts 2:20, 1 cor 1:8)
He does not mention eternity because he was being shown "The Day of the Lord" - thats why when in after the lambs wife - the new jerusalem - the kings and priests have been resurrected and the murderers, liars etc have there part in the lake of fire - there is work to do for those kings and priests, (they don't get to sit around looking down from heaven commenting on what a shame all those deceived people are burning in hell and they are playing harps walking streets of gold) the nations are healednot eternally tormented.
Universalists do not believe that there is salvation outside of Jesus Christ, we do not believe that there are not consequences for sin, we just don't believe that the consequences of sin is eternal death. That was never promised. Also Adam brought death to all men, Christ will bring life to all men.
Doesn't this deal with the people "living" in the millennium rule when there will be probably over 50 billion people on this planet during this time? furthermore why are we filling in the gaps, not even the best theologians see anything in scripture that paints a definite picture during the new millennium or what the saints will be doing.
Last edited by Fundamentalist; 06-19-2009 at 01:16 PM..
The amazing part is that it doesn't contradict the elect. I love these verses!
I love those verses too Fundy.
I hope it does not contradict, since I believe in election. Salvation is by God's righteous choice. It is not by the willing or running of man else we'd all be lost (there is none good, none seek God). Yet I do believe that salvation involves some running and willing (strive to enter the narrow gate, he who endures to the end will be saved, to whom who overcometh... etc.).
As Paul said "I laboured more abundantly than they all, yet not I but the grace of God" so Paul did some laboring (running and willing) yet in truth it was not Paul but God's grace labouring through Paul. We can do nothing of ourselves. We are His workmanship (not our own) created unto good works which God ordained that we should walk in. Salvation is 100% grace.
I hope it does not contradict, since I believe in election. Salvation is by God's righteous choice. It is not by the willing or running of man else we'd all be lost (there is none good, none seek God). Yet I do believe that salvation involves some running and willing (strive to enter the narrow gate, he who endures to the end will be saved, to whom who overcometh... etc.).
As Paul said "I laboured more abundantly than they all, yet not I but the grace of God" so Paul did some laboring (running and willing) yet in truth it was not Paul but God's grace labouring through Paul. We can do nothing of ourselves. We are His workmanship (not our own) created unto good works which God ordained that we should walk in. Salvation is 100% grace.
True but they must believe and repent right?
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