Helen Keller was blind and deaf, but knew God (paradise, punishment, woman)
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Keller was things that would bring her condemnation from the True Believers (R) on this board. The biggie is that she was a follower of Emmanuel Swedenborg's teachings, which denies Christian doctrines such as the Trinity, salvation by faith, and exclusivism. The equivalent could be perhaps Oprah Winfrey, who does believe in God but is plainly "New Age". Oprah as your know has come under much fire for her beliefs from evangelicals. So its a little disingenuous to hold up Miss Keller as a defense for your beliefs when in fact if she were alive now she would be vilified by evangelicals.
Or tell me; do you think that Helen Keller, with her beliefs that deny the Trinity, salvation by faith alone and Jesus Christ being the only way to salvation, is now in heaven?
I am not the judge of Helen only God is the judge of her.
Was you there when she died? Do, you know if God forgave her of her sins, NO, I'm sure you were not?
If God forgave you, and I'm sure you have done some things that others don't know about, then I'm sure if she asked God for forgiviness, then I'm sure she will be in heaven. But that is not for me to say.
Peter denied Jesus three times, so is Peter in heaven or hell? If God can forgive him, who says that God want forgive Helen for her deeds.
People need to stop pointing there finger at people and look at their life. There once was a time that we, yes, we were enemies of God. But He forgave us of all of our ugly, and negative things that we did and washed us from our past.
Yes, I am Christian, but I am not the person who can judge Helen for her life. You say that Christians would condemn her, well your wrong, because I don't condemn her because that is not for me to do.
If that is the case, we would all be condemned for our mistakes or the life that we live. The truth is there are things in your life that people would condemn you for, but what does God say?
You say that Christians would condemn her, well your wrong, because I don't condemn her because that is not for me to do.
Oh come on! This board is full of condemnation of those who don't sign on the dotted line of fundamentalist Christianity. You folks condemn New Agers and occultists, but now with someone who was famous and plainly a good person, you want to make her one of your own! If Miss Keller were alive today she would be vilified as an occultist, liberal, false teacher, new ager, ect. You want to fall back here on some hypothetical death-bed conversion to fundamentalist Christianity, but you could say that about anyone, even the most ardent atheist! Therefore, your whole point is moot.
Now in the future, if you want to be consistent, you must come to the defense of every false teacher that is brought up here, exhorting your fellow evangelicals not to condemn them. You will need to be vigorous in your defense of them as you are here with Miss Keller. That means if someone brings up Oprah Winfrey's denial that salvation is found only through Jesus Christ, you will say, "So what? God forgives her." Same with Eckhart Tolle, Sai Baba, Blavatsky, Carl Jung, John Edwards, Silvia Browne, etc. For consitancies sake you must defend such "false teachers" as you have defended Helen Keller here.
Oh come on! This board is full of condemnation of those who don't sign on the dotted line of fundamentalist Christianity. You folks condemn New Agers and occultists, but now with someone who was famous and plainly a good person, you want to make her one of your own! If Miss Keller were alive today she would be vilified as an occultist, liberal, false teacher, new ager, ect. You want to fall back here on some hypothetical death-bed conversion to fundamentalist Christianity, but you could say that about anyone, even the most ardent atheist! Therefore, your whole point is moot.
Now in the future, if you want to be consistent, you must come to the defense of every false teacher that is brought up here, exhorting your fellow evangelicals not to condemn them. You will need to be vigorous in your defense of them as you are here with Miss Keller. That means if someone brings up Oprah Winfrey's denial that salvation is found only through Jesus Christ, you will say, "So what? God forgives her." Same with Eckhart Tolle, Sai Baba, Blavatsky, Carl Jung, John Edwards, Silvia Browne, etc. For consitancies sake you must defend such "false teachers" as you have defended Helen Keller here.
This is a good post that is absolutely correct. The pointing of fingers and throwing people into eternal torture is done everyday on here. Now, when it`s a person who they admire or like , then it becomes,well it`s not really up to us to judge.
I totally agree with your statement about showing consistancy. They lose all credibility when they are selective of the individuals they choose to condemn and those they don`t. They will condemn universalist who teach God will eventually restore his creation and bring everyone to repentence. Eventhough we teach that Jesus is the only way.Other`s, like helen keller, they seem to admire and say nothing about what she believed and taught. Another thread on here concerning michael jackson, the same thing. Nothing but admiration and how great he was, rest in peace etc. But nothing about his religeous beliefs. How can you say rest in peace after all the ranting you do on here about people going to eternal torture for not following your beliefs. According to what a lot of people on this board rant about day after day, michael jackson, helen keller and the like are not resting in peace but being tortured day and night because they asked for it. If that is you belief, then stand by it. Don`t all of a sudden clam up about it and decide to turn the other cheek and say...well it`s up to God, it`s not up to me to say where they are, they probably had a death bed confession etc. Not after the way a lot of you rant on here about swine, heresy, being of the devil, etc. Like I`ve said before, the hypocrisy of some on here is mind boggling!
Oh come on! This board is full of condemnation of those who don't sign on the dotted line of fundamentalist Christianity. You folks condemn New Agers and occultists, but now with someone who was famous and plainly a good person, you want to make her one of your own! If Miss Keller were alive today she would be vilified as an occultist, liberal, false teacher, new ager, ect. You want to fall back here on some hypothetical death-bed conversion to fundamentalist Christianity, but you could say that about anyone, even the most ardent atheist! Therefore, your whole point is moot.
Now in the future, if you want to be consistent, you must come to the defense of every false teacher that is brought up here, exhorting your fellow evangelicals not to condemn them. You will need to be vigorous in your defense of them as you are here with Miss Keller. That means if someone brings up Oprah Winfrey's denial that salvation is found only through Jesus Christ, you will say, "So what? God forgives her." Same with Eckhart Tolle, Sai Baba, Blavatsky, Carl Jung, John Edwards, Silvia Browne, etc. For consitancies sake you must defend such "false teachers" as you have defended Helen Keller here.
You are very ignorant because I am not who you are claiming that I am. You only come with such claim because your error was pointed out. I'm not defending Helen, because I am not her defender or her judge.
You are not her judge or a judge of the Christians, and it sounds like you need to get your house in order for lack of pointing out others errors, when you have major errors in your life.
It is so funny, you keep saying if she were alive today, she would say, your are so slow, because you don't know what she would say today.
I don't condemn, especially when I don't have the authority to do so. Your point is coming from a point of someone who obviously never walked and seen the many religions and come in contact with people who are different.
I am normally surrounded by atheists, non-believers,sex offenders, murders, and the such. I doubt that you have never been the room with murders of childers, or sex offenders and still show compassion on them. Well, I do it all the time.
Have you ever been in the room with atleast 10 murders, or in the room with 20 sex offenders? If you haven't then you wouldn't know what I am talking about, and obviously you don't. So, unless you walked in my shoe, it would best for you to shut up and stop judging and putting me in this box of your oh all Christians are the same. Lame you are.
When I read about someone like Helen, she was a saint compared to the people that I deal with. I don't judge her and I want judge her, just like I want judge the sex offenders or the murders that I come in contact with. Until you can do that then you are still weak in thinking.
Until you can look at a women that we think killed my brother, and still say that I love you, and it is in God's hands, then you want know what I am talking about!
Until you look at the man that ran my cousin over and drove off, and still say that you forgive him and walk away not angry. Then you don't know what I am talking about!
Until you sit down with a the KKK and have a conversation and walk away smiling, then you want know what I am talking about, and I'm not white!
Until you can look at the boy who is not a man who molested you and say that you forgive him, then you want know what I am talking about.
You words are nothing but talk and know knowledge. You obviously don't know the things that I have been through and what type of person that has made me. I don't hate people, but it souds like you have a problem of your own.
Yes, I am Christian and I follow Christ and I don't judge others. You need to learn that moto and your words are in error.
Last edited by Miss Shawn_2828; 06-28-2009 at 03:04 PM..
This is a good post that is absolutely correct. The pointing of fingers and throwing people into eternal torture is done everyday on here. Now, when it`s a person who they admire or like , then it becomes,well it`s not really up to us to judge.
I totally agree with your statement about showing consistancy. They lose all credibility when they are selective of the individuals they choose to condemn and those they don`t. They will condemn universalist who teach God will eventually restore his creation and bring everyone to repentence. Eventhough we teach that Jesus is the only way.Other`s, like helen keller, they seem to admire and say nothing about what she believed and taught. Another thread on here concerning michael jackson, the same thing. Nothing but admiration and how great he was, rest in peace etc. But nothing about his religeous beliefs. How can you say rest in peace after all the ranting you do on here about people going to eternal torture for not following your beliefs. According to what a lot of people on this board rant about day after day, michael jackson, helen keller and the like are not resting in peace but being tortured day and night because they asked for it. If that is you belief, then stand by it. Don`t all of a sudden clam up about it and decide to turn the other cheek and say...well it`s up to God, it`s not up to me to say where they are, they probably had a death bed confession etc. Not after the way a lot of you rant on here about swine, heresy, being of the devil, etc. Like I`ve said before, the hypocrisy of some on here is mind boggling!
Both of you are so full of what everyone else is saying. I didn't post this thread for you or the others to come here and tell me what other Christians are saying. Lame, so lame I say.
I don't admire Helen, and she is not my hero, and I don't think of her all the time. I was only concerned that she knew God with her disability.
What is mind boggling is how people could look past what God did to reach her, and they argue about something as ignorant as what other Christians are doing.
If you would like to post what Christians are doing then start a thread and then we can argue that there.
Did you know that YOU are not your body? The real you lives inside a body. Just like a camper lives inside a tent. A Christian's life here on earth is like a camping trip. It is the camper who makes the choices on the trip --not the tent!
Like Helen Keller, many people have been assigned tents with serious flaws. The important thing is that Jesus wants to share your camping trip. Even though you can't see Him, Jesus wants to be your special friend. He is always faithful and will never leave you or forsake you. Jesus will be with you to share the good times -- and He will always be your helper during those hard times, when the going gets tough --and you have to really rough it!
This camping trip is when your faith is tested. Even though you can't see Him, Jesus expects you to trust and obey Him. He died on the cross so that your sins can be forgiven; and He has sent you an unseen Helper to give you the power to obey Him. All you have to do is choose to obey Him. Then, He will make it possible!
"Fear God and keep His Commandments: for that is the whole duty of man." God gave men ten fingers to remind them of His Ten Commandments. (You will find the Ten Commandments in Exodus 20:1-17.) When I was learning them, I wrote them on index cards. Then, I would memorize them when I was taking walks. By using my fingers, I could test myself to see if I could remember them.
When you are in trouble all you have to do is cry: "Help!" Remember what happened to Peter, when he cried: "Lord, save me." ...
"But when he [Peter] saw the wind boisterous, he was afraid; and beginning to sink, he cried, saying, LORD, SAVE ME. And immediately Jesus stretched forth his hand, and caught him, and said unto him, O thou of little faith, wherefore didst thou doubt?" Matt 14:30-31 (KJV)
Paul is another person who had a flawed tent and became a blessing to thousands of God's people:
"Concerning this [thorn in the flesh] I entreated the Lord three times that it might depart from me. And He has said to me, "My grace is sufficient for you, for power is perfected in weakness." Most gladly, therefore, I will rather boast about my weaknesses, that the power of Christ may dwell in me." 2 Cor 12:8-9 (NAS)
In those times when you feel all alone, Jesus wants tell you about what it means to be a child of God and some of the wonderful things that he is preparing for you when you get your new body. All of us need Jesus (and we need each other, too) as we continue on this camping trip toward our eternal home.
Donna Kupp
"But as it is written, Eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man, the things which God hath prepared for them that love him." 1 Corinthians 2:9
Did you know that YOU are not your body? The real you lives inside a body. Just like a camper lives inside a tent. A Christian's life here on earth is like a camping trip. It is the camper who makes the choices on the trip --not the tent!
Like Helen Keller, many people have been assigned tents with serious flaws. The important thing is that Jesus wants to share your camping trip. Even though you can't see Him, Jesus wants to be your special friend. He is always faithful and will never leave you or forsake you. Jesus will be with you to share the good times -- and He will always be your helper during those hard times, when the going gets tough --and you have to really rough it!
This camping trip is when your faith is tested. Even though you can't see Him, Jesus expects you to trust and obey Him. He died on the cross so that your sins can be forgiven; and He has sent you an unseen Helper to give you the power to obey Him. All you have to do is choose to obey Him. Then, He will make it possible!
"Fear God and keep His Commandments: for that is the whole duty of man." God gave men ten fingers to remind them of His Ten Commandments. (You will find the Ten Commandments in Exodus 20:1-17.) When I was learning them, I wrote them on index cards. Then, I would memorize them when I was taking walks. By using my fingers, I could test myself to see if I could remember them.
When you are in trouble all you have to do is cry: "Help!" Remember what happened to Peter, when he cried: "Lord, save me." ...
"But when he [Peter] saw the wind boisterous, he was afraid; and beginning to sink, he cried, saying, LORD, SAVE ME. And immediately Jesus stretched forth his hand, and caught him, and said unto him, O thou of little faith, wherefore didst thou doubt?" Matt 14:30-31 (KJV)
Paul is another person who had a flawed tent and became a blessing to thousands of God's people:
"Concerning this [thorn in the flesh] I entreated the Lord three times that it might depart from me. And He has said to me, "My grace is sufficient for you, for power is perfected in weakness." Most gladly, therefore, I will rather boast about my weaknesses, that the power of Christ may dwell in me." 2 Cor 12:8-9 (NAS)
In those times when you feel all alone, Jesus wants tell you about what it means to be a child of God and some of the wonderful things that he is preparing for you when you get your new body. All of us need Jesus (and we need each other, too) as we continue on this camping trip toward our eternal home.
Donna Kupp
"But as it is written, Eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man, the things which God hath prepared for them that love him." 1 Corinthians 2:9
Thank you for your post, we all have flaws. There is not one who is perfect, but God.
Well, I started not to post , because it relates to Michael Jackson and to some maybe he should not be mentioned on this board , but this has me puzzled and I think that it relates. I have an eleven year old nephew who has autism. We recognized the signs when he was about 2 years old and he has been involved with intense therapy since then. His speech is still very much delayed and he has therapists on a daily basis to help with speech, communication, behavior. His communication skills are still very limited basically to simple sentence and words , and a lot is when he is basically prompted. When he was in early therapy for speech maybe around age 3 or 4, he reportedly looked up and pointed up at the sky and said, "God". He had never said God before and once when he was a very maybe age 1 at church during services he began laughing, looking up and pointing up at the ceiling the whole time during the services. What really has me puzzled now relates to something that happened this week. I have always been a skeptic concerning this. He has reportedly done this is the past only with a couple of other people but I always pushed it out of my mind, not really wanting to think about it. But this week his mother said that the night before Michael Jackson died, he was up most of the night crying out Michael! Michael!, No, Michael!! And from what I understand, he had never said "Michael" before and he does not listen to Michael Jackson's music, has never really been exposed to his music or videos, ect. The only thing that I remember is that when he was in my care at around age 2 or 3 we maybe watched a couple of the MJ videos like Heal the World and Bad. His mother says that he kept repeating and calling out Michael's name that night and it worried her so bad because she did not know anyone named Michael, no therapists are named Michael. She called his various therapists that night to know if they were aware of anyone named Michael and they did not. The day when the news came on about Michael Jackson's death, he yelled out Michael again and after this has not said his name again. His mother is very unnerved right now and I don't know what to tell her. I am thinking that maybe he has been gifted in some way concerning this but I am still a skeptic. Any thoughts? Thanks and God bless.
Last edited by ShanaBrown; 06-28-2009 at 08:41 PM..
Well, I started not to post , because it relates to Michael Jackson and to some maybe he should not be mentioned on this board , but this has me puzzled and I think that it relates. I have an eleven year old nephew who has autism. We recognized the signs when he was about 2 years old and he has been involved with intense therapy since then. His speech is still very much delayed and he has therapists on a daily basis to help with speech, communication, behavior. His communication skills are still very limited basically to simple sentence and words , and a lot is when he is basically prompted. When he was in early therapy for speech maybe around age 3 or 4, he reportedly looked up and pointed up at the sky and said, "God". He had never said God before and once when he was a very maybe age 1 at church during services he began laughing, looking up and pointing up at the ceiling the whole time during the services. What really has me puzzled now relates to something that happened this week. I have always been a skeptic concerning this. He has reportedly done this is the past only with a couple of other people but I always pushed it out of my mind, not really wanting to think about it. But this week his mother said that the night before Michael Jackson died, he was up most of the night crying out Michael! Michael!, No, Michael!! And from what I understand, he had never "Michael" before and he does not listen to Michael Jackson's music, has never really been exposed to his music or videos, ect. The only thing that I remember is that when he was in my care at around age 2 or 3 we maybe watched a couple of the MJ videos like Heal the World and Bad. His mother says that he kept repeating and calling out Michael's name that night and it worried her so bad because she did not know anyone named Michael, no therapists are named Michael. She called his various therapists that night to know if they were aware of anyone named Michael and they did not. The day when the news came on about Michael Jackson's death, he yelled out Michael again and after this has not said his name again. His mother is very unnerved right now and I don't know what to tell her. I am thinking that maybe he has been gifted in some way concerning this but I am still a skeptic. Any thoughts? Thanks and God bless.
Wow, that is puzzling to me also. But we don't know what God could have revealed to the child. God deals with us in different ways, and some of those ways are mind boggling to us. God says that our ways are not His ways. It sounds like the boy knew something, and maybe saw someone about Michaels death, we may never know.
As, I read the bible, there are come situations where God revealed certain things to people. I'm not saying that this is a situation, but will we ever know. He may be gifted in areas, or God may be showing him things, only God knows, or the mother or people who are close to the child will just have to listen to the things that he says.
When the child said, God, it sounds like God is communicating with the child on a level that he can understand. I do believe in my heart that God comes to all of His children, and reveals or speaks to us in a way that we can understand. God will not leave us comfortless, in any situation.
Your nephew may be gifted and limited in certain ways, but it shows that he understands on some level about God. I think that is an amazing thing.
When your nephew was in church, God could have opened his eyes to see angels and things that are not seen with the natural eye. It is possible.
But the most important thing to know, is that it seems that God is communicating or showing the child something. God may be speaking to the child in a way, that only your nephew can understand.
Between your nephew crying out Michael's name and Michael Jackson dieing, sounds like the two go hand and hand. But if your nephew is unable to tell you why he was crying out the name or unable to give a last name, then you will just have to guess if the two are linked.
But I do know one thing, God love your nephew and it sounds like God has been interacting with your nephew.
Last edited by Miss Shawn_2828; 06-28-2009 at 08:34 PM..
Well, I started not to post , because it relates to Michael Jackson and to some maybe he should not be mentioned on this board , but this has me puzzled and I think that it relates. I have an eleven year old nephew who has autism. We recognized the signs when he was about 2 years old and he has been involved with intense therapy since then. His speech is still very much delayed and he has therapists on a daily basis to help with speech, communication, behavior. His communication skills are still very limited basically to simple sentence and words , and a lot is when he is basically prompted. When he was in early therapy for speech maybe around age 3 or 4, he reportedly looked up and pointed up at the sky and said, "God". He had never said God before and once when he was a very maybe age 1 at church during services he began laughing, looking up and pointing up at the ceiling the whole time during the services. What really has me puzzled now relates to something that happened this week. I have always been a skeptic concerning this. He has reportedly done this is the past only with a couple of other people but I always pushed it out of my mind, not really wanting to think about it. But this week his mother said that the night before Michael Jackson died, he was up most of the night crying out Michael! Michael!, No, Michael!! And from what I understand, he had never "Michael" before and he does not listen to Michael Jackson's music, has never really been exposed to his music or videos, ect. The only thing that I remember is that when he was in my care at around age 2 or 3 we watched a couple of the MJ videos like Heal the World and Bad. His mother says that he kept repeating and calling out Michael's name that night and it worried her so bad because she did not know anyone named Michael, no therapists are named Michael. She called his various therapists that night to know if they were aware of anyone named Michael and they did not. The day when the news came on about Michael Jackson's death, he yelled out Michael again and after this has not said his name again. I am thinking that maybe he has been gifted in some way concerning this but I am still a skeptic. Any thoughts? Thanks and God bless.
Hey shana, I know these things are real to the people who experience them. That the name michael may seem to be michael jackson because he died the next day. But there were probably hundreds if not thousands of michaels that died that same day. I don`t think michael jackson is any more important than any other michael or human being for that matter. So his passing from this age into the next doesn`t really mean more to me than anyone else who died that same day. A human being is a human being and all the wealth and all the talent a person has in this life isn`t going to amount to a hill of beans in the next.
I understand the fixation with celebrity that a lot of people have. I`ve never been impressed by fame or money. I liked the jackson 5, even have a 4 cd set of their music. But the fact is, he didn`t exactly live a Christian life. He seemed like a nice,generous,quiet guy. His childhood or lack of it probably made him turn out the way he did. I just have a hard time equating fame, celebrity,glitz and glamour with God. I`m not saying it`s impossible. It`s just that I don`t see God in the riches and fame that people clamour for. I`m sure there were thousands of michaels who lived for God that died the same day mj did. But since mj was famous,we assume michael must mean michael jackson. My question would be, what purpose would it serve if your nephew was calling out michael jackson`s name? Why couldn`t it be another michael who died? Does it glorify God somehow? I don`t know, these are the questions I would have. Perhaps he met another child named michael. Maybe he heard the name michael on tv or the radio. Who knows. My inclination would be that it`s a coincidence. People die everyday. What would make michael jackson`s death more important than anybody elses? He was just a man, that had a talent for song and dance. Neither of those things matter once a person dies. Some of the people who were the most admired, talented, and gifted in this short time on earth will be the least in the kingdom for all of eternity. Some of the poorest people alive today who noone gives a hoot about will be greater in the kingdom. When it is all said and done, I`m sure they would have traded their short lived fame and notariety for something greater in the glory to come. Just my thoughts and my opinion. Like i said, i know a lot of people will take issue with what I said because they are infatuated with fame and celebrity. I am in no way diminshing michael jackson, just saying he was a man no better than anyone else who will have to face God`s judgement at the end of the day.Eventhough he is treated like a God on earth. God Bless.
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Flawed tents
, but this has me puzzled and I think that it relates. I have an eleven year old nephew who has autism. We recognized the signs when he was about 2 years old and he has been involved with intense therapy since then. His speech is still very much delayed and he has therapists on a daily basis to help with speech, communication, behavior. His communication skills are still very limited basically to simple sentence and words , and a lot is when he is basically prompted. When he was in early therapy for speech maybe around age 3 or 4, he reportedly looked up and pointed up at the sky and said, "God". He had never said God before and once when he was a very maybe age 1 at church during services he began laughing, looking up and pointing up at the ceiling the whole time during the services. What really has me puzzled now relates to something that happened this week. I have always been a skeptic concerning this. He has reportedly done this is the past only with a couple of other people but I always pushed it out of my mind, not really wanting to think about it. But this week his mother said that the night before Michael Jackson died, he was up most of the night crying out Michael! Michael!, No, Michael!! And from what I understand, he had never said "Michael" before and he does not listen to Michael Jackson's music, has never really been exposed to his music or videos, ect. The only thing that I remember is that when he was in my care at around age 2 or 3 we maybe watched a couple of the MJ videos like Heal the World and Bad. His mother says that he kept repeating and calling out Michael's name that night and it worried her so bad because she did not know anyone named Michael, no therapists are named Michael. She called his various therapists that night to know if they were aware of anyone named Michael and they did not. The day when the news came on about Michael Jackson's death, he yelled out Michael again and after this has not said his name again. His mother is very unnerved right now and I don't know what to tell her. I am thinking that maybe he has been gifted in some way concerning this but I am still a skeptic. Any thoughts? Thanks and God bless.
