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The problem is UR's generally reject teaching of the difference of objective and subjective justification.
The result of no subjective justification leads to the denial of eternal damnation Matthew 18:8, personal eternal consequence of rejecting God while alive John 3:18, and the futile attempt of many to avoid the inevitable Matthew 7:20-22, Matthew 22:12 ...(and like verses)
A classic example of objective \ subjective is John 3:16
objective...."For God so loved the worldthat he gave his one and only Son,"
subjective...."that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life."
The problem is UR's generally reject teaching of the difference of objective and subjective justification.
The result of no subjective justification leads to the denial of eternal damnation Matthew 18:8, personal eternal consequence of rejecting God while alive John 3:18, and the futile attempt of many to avoid the inevitable Matthew 7:20-22, Matthew 22:12 ...(and like verses)
A classic example of objective \ subjective is John 3:16
objective...."For God so loved the worldthat he gave his one and only Son,"
subjective...."that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life."
Hi HotinAz, I believe that God will convince all to grab the life preserver because even our coming to Him is the result of His work, not of our own..
The one of the greatest gifts to the human being, that of free will, is not really free will?
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He says that His word will not return void and that He accomplishes whatever He purposes to do.
And? How does this apply to the unregenerate man, who spits on the cross?
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Jesus was sent on a mission to be the Savior of the world and I believe that this mission will be accomplished.
See, this is where you and I disagree. The Savior of the World IS. The mission IS. His Father IS. He IS. There is no future, no past, nothing. He was there from what WE call the beginning, and at the SAME TIME, the end. Jesus IS the Savior of the world, NOW. There will not be another, maybe, could be, chance for the transgressor who defiles the work on the cross. His Blood IS sufficient NOW.
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Again, it isn't about second chances HotinAz. It isn't about chances at all.
Yes it is. It HAS to be, in order for your false doctrine to stand. If you sin willingly without repentence after claiming the Holy Blood for your transgression against God the Father and each other,,,,what do YOU think Father will say on that day you stand in front of Him? "Take a bath in some fire because you aren't quite done yet??" Come on.
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It is about God accomplishing what He desires in the creation, that being the reconcilation of all to Himself.
Yes, His name is Jesus, or Yeshua. His Son paved the WAY for reconcilation, when prior to that for thousands of years, there was NONE. That is why Jesus said, "It is finished".
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Jesus said that the ruler of this world has been cast out and that if He was lifted us, He would draw/drag all to Himself.
And? Think they are gonna go even kicking and screaming? Does a child always do what you want them to do, or do they rebel? Remember, the first sin?
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He is the one that does the dragging. All do not come at the same time, but eventually all of creation is to be delivered (Romans 8).
All of creation will stand and face Him. Yes. So even the wicked are resurrected, but sadly, most will not stay that way. They will behold the Glory, and then they will be no more.
So then if you don't mind sharing, Hot, what is your belief about what will happen to the unregenerate?
Sure! I believe those who have trampled on the Blood of the Lamb will just be gone, forever. Snufffed out of existence, by the Creator. The person who has never heard the "Good News"? I leave this to the Judge of all Judges, our Father. Could there be more to this story? Sure, and I leave my mind open to this. But,,
The religious folks of Jesus's day were the ones He spoke the most harshly to, even telling them they are condemned in hell, unless they repented and turned of their wicked ways. The ones who claimed to know God, yet didn't.
Salvation out of the lake of fire which is the 2nd death
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Originally Posted by HotinAZ
The one of the greatest gifts to the human being, that of free will, is not really free will.
And? How does this apply to the unregenerate man, who spits on the cross?
See, this is where you and I disagree. The Savior of the World IS. The mission IS. His Father IS. He IS. There is no future, no past, nothing. He was there from what WE call the beginning, and at the SAME TIME, the end. Jesus IS the Savior of the world, NOW. There will not be another, maybe, could be, chance for the transgressor who defiles the work on the cross. His Blood IS sufficient NOW.
Yes it is. It HAS to be, in order for your false doctrine to stand. If you sin willingly without repentence after claiming the Holy Blood for your transgression against God the Father and each other,,,,what do YOU think Father will say on that day you stand in front of Him? "Take a bath in some fire because you aren't quite done yet??" Come on.
Yes, His name is Jesus, or Yeshua. His Son paved the WAY for reconcilation, when prior to that for thousands of years, there was NONE. That is why Jesus said, "It is finished".
And? Think they are gonna go even kicking and screaming? Does a child always do what you want them to do, or do they rebel? Remember, the first sin?
All of creation will stand and face Him. Yes. So even the wicked are resurrected, but sadly, most will not stay that way. They will behold the Glory, and then they will be no more.
SALVATION OUT OF THE LAKE OF FIRE WHICH IS THE SECOND DEATH
EVERYONE WILL BE SAVED – SOME THROUGH THE FIRE – BUT ALL THROUGH THE BLOOD
Any hell that anyone will experience the Bible calls "kolasis aionian," which means age-during corrective chastisement. Chapter Eleven
According to the Bible everyone will be saved - some through the fire, but all through the blood. The Law of Circularity
We should desire to experience the lake of fire if God sees that is what we need. That's how much we can relax in the arms of God's love.
It is God’s decretive will (that which MUST occur) that everyone violates His preceptive will (that which they OUGHT to do) as much as they actually do because each person is being fitted into God’s master plan in a way that necessitates their own individual experience with sin, evil and suffering. Then when God consummates His plan for the ages of time He will eradicate sin and suffering from existence after everyone has learned all that God wants them to learn from its temporary existence. The eons of the Bible With Concordance, God’s purpose of the eons.
The process of salvation will be completed for the firstfruits of election, (the remnant chosen by grace), after the first resurrection. The process of salvation will be completed for the non-elect after the great white throne judgment. For some, it will include an experience in the lake of fire.
But everyone will be saved out of the lake of fire which is the second death.
You may ask, “What scriptural evidence is there of being saved out of the lake of fire which is the second death?"
There actually is much evidence.
Although the book of Revelation is the last book placed in the Bible, it is not the final revelation of what God is going to do with humanity. The apostle Paul saw way beyond John.
Col.1:25 of which I became a dispenser, in accord with the administration of God, which is granted to me for you, to complete the word of God.
There is much evidence that Paul did see way beyond John. For instance, in Revelation there are still kings reigning, and Christ is still reigning along with His followers. There are still sovereignties and powers in force throughout the book of revelation. So John did not see the day when all sovereignty, authority and power would be done away. Paul did. If you will look at 1Corinthians 15:24-28 Paul saw the day when all of these would be done away. He sees the day when "He should be nullifying all sovereignty, authority and power" (vs.24)
Paul sees the day when Christ will quit reigning (vs.25).
Paul sees the day when death (all death which includes the second death) will be abolished (vs.26). Please remember that death will be abolished **after** all the sovereignties, authorities and powers in Revelation have been nullified. Within the book of Revelation, death is still operational as are the afore mentioned powers.
So what is going to happen to all these people who are in death when death is abolished?
They will come forth vivified (made alive beyond the reach of death) (1Cor.15:22).
They will have their lives justified and will be constituted righteous:
Romans 5:18 Consequently, then, as it was through one offense for all mankind for condemnation, thus also it is through one just award for all mankind for life's justifying.
Romans 5:19 For even as, through the disobedience of the one man, the many were constituted sinners, thus also, through the obedience of the One, the many shall be constituted just.
All will be reconciled to God (Col.1:20)
All will be headed up in Christ (Eph.1:10)
All will bow the knee in the name of Jesus and acclaim with their tongue that "Jesus Christ is Lord" to the glory of God, the Father (Phil.2:9-11).
And we know that anyone who acclaims that Jesus Christ is Lord, especially when it is to God's glory without any hypocrisy is saved for 1Corinthians 12:3 says so.
So there is proof that people will go to the second death **when ** the new earth comes. And there is proof that this is not the final goal God has for these people.
In summary then:
The lake of fire is the second death.
The apostle John did not see into the future as far as the apostle Paul.
How do I know this? and what ramifications does this have as to whether or not one gets out of the lake of fire...the second death? Plenty.
In the book of revelation Christ is still reigning; death is still operational; sovereignties, authorities and powers are still in force.
In 1Cor.15:22-28 Paul sees way beyond John's revelation.
He sees the day when Christ will quit reigning (1Cor.15:25).
He sees the day when all sovereignties, authorities and powers are nullified (1Cor.15:24).
He sees the day when death is abolished (1Cor.15:26) and all are then subjected to Christ then Christ is subjected to God and then God is All in all (1Cor.15:28).
So, yes, there is scripture which intimates that all in the lake of fire will come forth and God will be All in all.
Also in 1Cor.15:22 all are dying and in Christ shall all be vivified. So this happens after death for most.
Also in Romans 5:18,19 you have what happens to all mankind due to what Adam did which happens to the exact same all mankind due to what Christ did. But it does not happen to all at the exact same time.
Each in his own order.
Where is a resurrection from the lake of fire which is the second death taught in the scriptures?
The lake of fire is distinctly defined as the second death Rev.20:14; 21:8. In it is cast all that is still at enmity with God. So that, death is indeed the last enemy (1 Cor.15:26).
And we are just as decidedly told that Christ is the one who abolishes death and brings life and incorruptibility to light (2 Tim.1:10). The reading "hath abolished" is not true as to fact or as to grammar. It is in the indefinite form (commonly called the aorist tense) simply recording the fact apart from time. Death has not been abolished yet.
How and when it will be abolished is told us in the fifteenth of first Corinthians. It is to be abolished by means of universal vivification (1 Cor.15:22). This takes place at the consummation (1 Cor.15:26).
It is useless to look for plain statements on this subject in parts of the Scriptures whose scope is limited to eonian truth, such as the Revelation. It is unwise to look for it anywhere but in the special portion which deals with this topic. Death and resurrection are exhaustively treated in the, fifteen chapter of first Corinthians and there it is we should look for clear statements as to the ultimate goal. There we are distinctly told that the last enemy that shall be abolished is death (which must refer to the lake of fire, for the first death cannot be the last enemy). And there we are told that it is to be done by a universal vivification rather than resurrection.
The term "resurrection" is applied to those who have afterward died again, such as those who suffer the second death. Hence there is not a resurrection, merely, from the lake of fire, but a vivification beyond which there can be no death.
What do you suppose the lake that burns with fire and brimstone will do? It will burn off of mankind the stubborn will which is contrary to the Lord’s will. It will take that which the Lord subjected man to, death, and will burn its bonds off. The flames of fire will lick the lashes of cords that have bound men in rebellion and will dispose of those cords as one would burn refuse in a hot scorching fire. It is the rebellious will, maintained by ignorance that is burned. The same standard of burning happens to the Overcomer. They are baptized in the very same fire. The fire that constitutes the lake that burns with fire and brimstone and the fire upon the brow of the Overcomer are the very same kind of fire. In both cases, whether it be the Overcomer or the unrepentant sinner, the cords of ignorance as to the will of the Lord are burned off. Such is the ordination in fire, no one will escape it who needs it.
The one of the greatest gifts to the human being, that of free will, is not really free will.
Hi, God works all things according to the counsel of His will (Ephesians 1), not man's will. There are many many examples in the scriptures of God influencing man's "free will", HotinAz. I believe that we have a self will, but I don't believe that it is free of God's influence and operations. Please see Romans 9.
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He says that His word will not return void and that He accomplishes whatever He purposes to do.
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And? How does this apply to the unregenerate man, who spits on the cross?
God's word will not return void. It accomplishes whatever He purposes it to do, regardless of unregnerate man who spits on the cross. Some of us once spit on the cross, yet God brought about a change in our hearts. Unregenerate man is clay in the hands of His Potter.
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Jesus was sent on a mission to be the Savior of the world and I believe that this mission will be accomplished.
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See, this is where you and I disagree. The Savior of the World IS. The mission IS. His Father IS. He IS. There is no future, no past, nothing. He was there from what WE call the beginning, and at the SAME TIME, the end. Jesus IS the Savior of the world, NOW. There will not be another, maybe, could be, chance for the transgressor who defiles the work on the cross. His Blood IS sufficient NOW.
He was sent on a mission to be the Savior of the world (1 Cor. 4:14) and what He accomplished on the cross He accomplished for all. All have not seen it yet and all have not returned to Him yet. Just as we do not yet "see" all things subjected to Him, all things have been made subject to Him.
*sent=apostello=to send forth on a certain mission, denotes the mission that has to be fulfilled and the authority that backs it up, to send upon some business or employment (Hebrew/Greek Key Word Study)
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Again, it isn't about second chances HotinAz. It isn't about chances at all.
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Yes it is. It HAS to be, in order for your false doctrine to stand. If you sin willingly without repentence after claiming the Holy Blood for your transgression against God the Father and each other,,,,what do YOU think Father will say on that day you stand in front of Him? "Take a bath in some fire because you aren't quite done yet??" Come on.
It is not false doctrine. It was God's good pleasure to reconcile all to Himself according to Colossians 1 and eventually all of creation is to be delivered from the slavery to corruption and changed into the freedom of the glory of the children of God. (Romans 8) Second chance means the possibility of it never happening, but God always accomplishes what He purposes to do. He works all things according to the counsel of His will.
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It is about God accomplishing what He desires in the creation, that being the reconcilation of all to Himself.
Yes, His name is Jesus, or Yeshua. His Son paved the WAY for reconcilation, when prior to that for thousands of years, there was NONE. That is why Jesus said, "It is finished".
The apostle Paul says that it was God's good pleasure to reconcile all , not only to pave the way to be reconciled to Him. It is definitely finished
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Jesus said that the ruler of this world has been cast out and that if He was lifted us, He would draw/drag all to Himself.
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And? Think they are gonna go even kicking and screaming? Does a child always do what you want them to do, or do they rebel? Remember, the first sin?
Jesus said that the ruler of this world has been cast out and that if He was lifted up (and He was), He would draw/drag all to Himself. They are going to come to Him. Evidently all will not kick and scream forever when they will all acknowledge, proclaim, give thanks to Him and bow to Him in adoration and worship. He is able to convince all because He has all power.
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He is the one that does the dragging. All do not come at the same time, but eventually all of creation is to be delivered (Romans 8).
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All of creation will stand and face Him. Yes. So even the wicked are resurrected, but sadly, most will not stay that way. They will behold the Glory, and then they will be no more
All creation is to be delivered according to Romans 8. God bless.
Last edited by ShanaBrown; 07-19-2009 at 09:48 AM..
Sure! I believe those who have trampled on the Blood of the Lamb will just be gone, forever. Snufffed out of existence, by the Creator. The person who has never heard the "Good News"? I leave this to the Judge of all Judges, our Father. Could there be more to this story? Sure, and I leave my mind open to this. But,,
The religious folks of Jesus's day were the ones He spoke the most harshly to, even telling them they are condemned in hell, unless they repented and turned of their wicked ways. The ones who claimed to know God, yet didn't.
People who trample on the Blood of the Lamb will receive kolasis aionian which means age-during corrective chastisement.
Any “hell” that anyone will experience the Bible calls "kolasis aionion," (Matthew 25:46) which means age-during corrective chastisement. Chapter Eleven
You might like to be aware of the evidence why some of us think that the Bible teaches universal salvation rather than annihilation.
An online book that shows why we believe the Bible teaches universal salvation rather than annihilation is ALL IN ALL by A.E. Knoch.
WILL UNBELIEVERS BE ANNIHILATED - chapters three and four Lighthouse Library International - ALL IN ALL, ADOLPH E||&type=&what=author
For example, two are
ETERNAL DEATH ANNIHILATION ONE STEP OUT OF HELL Eternal Death (Annihilation): One Step Out of Hell; One Step Short of Glory
Or
JUST WHAT DO YOU MEAN BY THE WORD DESTRUCTION?
Just What Do You Mean By The Word DESTRUCTION? (http://hell-fact-or-fable.com/destruction3.html - broken link)
Here is an intro to the book
ALL IN ALL by A.E. Knoch (222 pages)
Concordant Publishing Concern Concordant Publishing Concern
Introduction:
"The blood of Christ is the basis of all blessing. The purpose of God determines human destiny. It does not depend on our deserts. The plan or process of God during the eons or ages must be distinguished from His purpose which will not be fully accomplished until the eons are past. Herein lies the difference between the teaching of the Scriptures and the accepted creeds of Christendom.
The believer suffers in the current era because of sin, but will be released in the resurrection at the presence of Christ. The unbeliever will have affliction and anguish for his sins in the judgment, but he also becomes reconciled to God at the consummation, through the blood of Christ’s cross. (Col.1-20).
Universal reconciliation is the glorious goal toward which all leads. All of God’s purpose is achieved through Him Who is the Alpha and the Omega (Rev.1:8). “In Him the entire complement delights to dwell, and through Him [God delights] to reconcile all to Him (making peace through the blood of His cross), through him, whether those on the earth or those in the heavens” (Col.1:19,20)
The terms translated “forever” and “everlasting” and “never” are human perversions which could never have deceived us if they had been consistently rendered. They denote definite divisions of time called ages or eons. All together they form a distinct portion of time called eonian times. Much in our common creeds is true if confined within the eons, but it is most malignant error when forced beyond the eons.
Since judgment is not eternal, but eonian, we may accept all the solemn threats of death and condemnation without reservation, while happily exulting in God’s grand goal to which all His labors lead: that God may be All in All (1Cor.15:28)."
From Rodger Tutt in Toronto, Canada
Last edited by rodgertutt; 07-19-2009 at 09:39 AM..
Reason: highligjting
Again, you must leave these links out, otherwise you look like you are advertising. I can't even begin to read your posts, because they are not from you, but rather are copied and pasted. At least it is what it looks like.
When I type, I ask the Spirit for help in dealing with Truth and falsehoods. I let my fingers do the typing, and whatever happens to be put down on this, is what you read. Jesus did not only come to condemn the false preachers, but rather also He came to save the "Lost sheep". Are you telling me now that every single person who has ever lived is a "Lost sheep"? Then pray tell me, who are the goats?
To try to wrap your mind around UR, you have to discount major parts of the Word. For myself, it has pretty much been reconciled, from Genesis to Revelation. I get it, from Adam's fall, to John seeing himself being born again. I understand what Jesus did, spending 3 1/2 years in ministry.
If He was "just" the Savior of the world, why the need to preach, and prophesy? Why the need to condemn falsehood? Why the need to do the miracles?
See, He is not "just" the Savior of the world, to those who believe. He is ALSO the King of kings, and Lord of lords. His Titles go beyond our wildest imaginations. Some we know, such as our High Priest, the Bridegroom, the Lion of the tribe of Judah, the King of Israel, the Son of God. But, there are, I am sure, many more we cannot even fathom at this time, in the flesh.
I like to read, don't get me wrong. Like I said, J Preston Eby is one of my favorites, for he has great spiritual insights. But, I don't have to agree with anything he has written, if it isn't true. I have read many people who mainstream would consider heretics. Like Joseph Smith, Ellen G White, Herbert Armstrong, C.S. Lewis, and even the "lost books" of the Bible.
Why? Because I rely on the Spirit for the Truth. If the Spirit was to "give" to you, a spiritual revelation that ONLY you out of billions understand, and you KNOW it is Truth, what would you do? Would you share it? Would you sell it, as most would? Think you might fall, after receiving it? Well, most people when given something so Spiritual so as to shake even the foundations of our faith, cower in fear of the reprisals other religious men would do to them. It takes a tremendous amount of FAITH, to stand there and take a beating, even to the death, for our King.
And then, others come along and TAKE the Spiritual Nuggets given to the few, and create for themselves a WHOLE NEW religous systems, not comepletely unlike what they came out of, but actually no better. If the first was false, then the second is just as false. Poison is still poison, no matter how diluted with water it is. But even though it is poison in part, the majority of it is still water. So take the good, and leave out the bad, and let the Spirit decide what is what.
This thread demonstrates why protestantism doesn't work. There are so many posts that talk about what "I" believe. I mean, as a group you can't even agree on something as vitally important as salvation. How could you possibly agree on the less important items? Why does this happen? Two words: Sola Scriptura.
Chaos, cats living with dogs, mass hysteria. Protestantism.
Rev 14:9 And the third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, If any man worship the beast and his image, and receive his mark in his forehead, or in his hand,
Rev 14:10 The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb:
Rev 14:11 And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.
For anyone who truly believe in UR, this threat shouldn't scare them in the least. Go ahead and take the mark; bow down to the AC so you can buy and sell during the trib; avoid all the persecution of the Saints going on around you. Why? because you get a chance to repent taking the mark and worshiping the beast after you die; this way you can have your cake and eat it too. Yum-yum!
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Salvation out of the lake of fire which is the 2nd death
