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Old 07-18-2009, 04:19 PM
 
Location: Toronto, Ontario, Canada
3,153 posts, read 3,416,790 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Phazelwood View Post
Long drawn out essays are then needed to clear up why the following is then not a contradiction to that conclusion.

Phl 2:10 That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of [things] in heaven, and [things] in earth, and [things] under the earth;
Phl 2:11 And [that] every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ [is] Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

The narrow and straight gate issue is about which means people will take to get there.

To the glory of the father, then will require all kind of convoluted nonsense to determine why it is to the glory of the father as he stands there hearing them confess at their realization of doom.

Well, if it weren't for the people in spiritual bondage believing that mess, it would be funny.
EVERY KNEE SHALL BOW

Doomed, you bet. Everyone "doomed" to salvation

Every knee bowing in the Name of Jesus (Phil 2:9; Is 45:23)
“in” is the literal Greek translation. See Young’s Literal Translation.
and every tongue acclaiming that Jesus Christ is Lord.

And we know that anyone who acclaims that Jesus Christ is Lord,
especially when it is to God's glory without any hypocrisy is saved for 1Corinthians 12:3 says so

We are talking about universal salvation here.

Every Knee Shall Bow

Every knee shall bow -- forced or free will
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Old 07-18-2009, 04:45 PM
 
Location: Toronto, Ontario, Canada
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Default How Matt. 7:21 DOES NOT disprove universalism

Quote:
Originally Posted by rodgertutt View Post
Comment by Tony Nungesser of THE SAVIOUR OF ALL FELLOWSHIP regarding the title of this thread.

Re Matt. 7:21

"It does not say they will never be saved. It also does not say such ones will never enter the kingdom of heaven *. We should not take was Jesus said in Matthew 7:21 and make that contradict what He had Paul tell us that eventually all will be saved and eventually all mankind will acclaim that Jesus Christ is Lord to the glory of God, the Father (Phil.2:8-11). This acclamation is not done in hypocrisy for it is done to God's glory.

During the eons there will be people who will not be entering into the kingdom of heaven (that kingdom being on the earth during the 1000 year millennium) which Christ will set up. Eventually, though, God will be All in all such individuals (1 Cor.15:22-28) and all mankind will be made righteous and justified (Romans 5:18,19), be reconciled to God through the blood of Christ's cross (Col.1:20) and be headed up in the Christ (Eph.1:9).
Saviour of all Fellowship, universal reconciliation, salvation of all mankind

* after they start doing the will of our Father
(see the second half of the verse)

Last edited by rodgertutt; 07-18-2009 at 04:46 PM.. Reason: addition
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Old 07-18-2009, 06:18 PM
 
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Basically you can call yourself whatever you want but not all are really christians that say they are and many will not get into heaven. It talks about this time and again.
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Old 07-18-2009, 07:01 PM
 
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Quote:
It is limited in duration, and corrective in purpose. AIÓN -- AIÓNIOS
Matthew 25:46 - “Aionian” or “Eternal”
But what about "aionas ton aionon" or "ages of the ages" which translates "forever and ever"?

Quote:
"Now to the King eternal, immortal, invisible, the only God, be honor and glory forever and ever. Amen," (1 Tim. 1:17).
Quote:
". . . To Him who sits on the throne, and to the Lamb, be blessing and honor and glory and dominion forever and ever" (Rev. 5:13).
Quote:
"And a second time they said, "Hallelujah! Her smoke rises up forever and ever" (Rev. 19:3)
The Greek phrase "aionas ton aionon," which is translated "forever and ever," occurs 18 times in the Greek New Testament. In 17 of them, the phrase means without end, extending into infinity. In Rev. 19:3, the phrase is used to describe the destruction of the great ***** of Babylon (Rev. 17:1,4) whose smoke ascends forever and ever. It too is eternal and it signifies the beginning of the eternal judgment that comes upon her.

Also worth examining is Rev. 14:11: "And the smoke of their torment goes up forever and ever ["aionas ton aionon"]; and they have no rest day and night, those who worship the beast and his image, and whoever receives the mark of his name."
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Old 07-18-2009, 09:36 PM
 
Location: NC
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Quote:
You seem to think the kingdom of heaven is actual heaven - but what I see in scripture is the kingdom is about Jesus reigning with the elect ruling the nations.
Agree. God bless.

ages of the ages
Quote:

THE EONS OF THE EONS" (plural/plural) COMPARED WITH "THE HOLIES OF THE HOLIES" (plural/plural)

There are several analogous expressions in the Scriptures which should show the meaning of the words under discussion. In Ex. 26:33, tou hagiou ton hagion, "in the holy of the holies." This is similar to the "eon of the eons" of Eph. 3:21. In II Kings 8:6 we see, eis ta hagia ton hagion, "for the holies of the holies"-similar to "eons of the eons." The "holy of the holies" and "holies of the holies" refer to the tabernacle. Psalm 44:7 says, ho thronos sou ho theos, eis ton aiona tou aionos, "Thy throne, O God, is for the eon of eon"-similar to Heb. 1:8. Daniel 7:18: "until eon of the eons" and similar to that of Eph. 3:21, where a singular is followed by a plural, "eon of the eons." In these expressions we see the eons corresponding to the holies in the tabernacle.

While there are many different teachings on the types in the Tabernacle of Moses, it should not be too difficult to see that there were at least five divisions: (1) without the camp; (2) in the camp; (3) in the court; (4) in the holy place; and (5) in the holy of holies. These may be likened to the five eons we find in the Scriptures (past eons, present eon, future eons). The last eon is called the "eon of the eons," because it, like the "holy of holies," is the climax of the others. In Hebrews chapter 9, the Greek text of Nestle reads (margin v. 25), eis ta hagia ton hagion, "into the holies of the holies," and (v. 3), hagia hagion, "holies of holies."

Just as the two holy places in the tabernacle are called the holies of holies, so the last two eons are often called the eons of the eons. As the tabernacle illustrated man's approach to God, it corresponds closely with the eonian times, which also brings man to God. The "holy of holies" was a single holy place. The "eon of eons," a single eon. It was the pre-eminence of the "holy of holies," in relation to the other holy places, which caused it to be so designated. So the pre-eminence of the "eon of the eons" lies in its being the fruitage and harvest of previous eons. The same is true of the "holies of the holies" of Heb. 9:25. They may be likened to the "eons of the eons" of Rev. 11:15; 22:5. Luke 1:33 says of Christ's "kingdom there shall be no end." While the kingdom itself will not end, the reign of Christ for the eons of the eons will end when He delivers up the kingdom to the Father (1 Cor. 15:24-26).
Eons of the Eons
https://www.city-data.com/forum/chris...ml#post9804992
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Old 07-18-2009, 10:32 PM
 
Location: New Zealand
11,948 posts, read 3,774,194 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by thrillobyte View Post
But what about "aionas ton aionon" or "ages of the ages" which translates "forever and ever"?







The Greek phrase "aionas ton aionon," which is translated "forever and ever," occurs 18 times in the Greek New Testament. In 17 of them, the phrase means without end, extending into infinity. In Rev. 19:3, the phrase is used to describe the destruction of the great ***** of Babylon (Rev. 17:1,4) whose smoke ascends forever and ever. It too is eternal and it signifies the beginning of the eternal judgment that comes upon her.

Also worth examining is Rev. 14:11: "And the smoke of their torment goes up forever and ever ["aionas ton aionon"]; and they have no rest day and night, those who worship the beast and his image, and whoever receives the mark of his name."
What exactly are 2 forevers if one forever never ends, how can you have another ever after the forever? Aion or aionios does not mean forever or eternal.

Also if you read the context around this passage if you worship the beast and his image you drink the wine of the wrath of God and it says here is the patience of the saints and blessed are the dead that die in the Lord. The dead that die in the Lord are the ones, drinking the wine of the wrath of God and being tormented in the presence of the Lamb and the holy angels (messengers)

The wrath of God has a purpose. Isa 26:9 With my soul have I desired thee in the night; yea, with my spirit within me will I seek thee early: for when thy judgments are in the earth, the inhabitants of the world will learn righteousness.



Rev 14:9 And the third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, If any man worship the beast and his image, and receive his mark in his forehead, or in his hand,
Rev 14:10 The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb:
Rev 14:11 And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.
Rev 14:12 Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus.
Rev 14:13 And I heard a voice from heaven saying unto me, Write, Blessed are the dead which die in the Lord from henceforth: Yea, saith the Spirit, that they may rest from their labours; and their works do follow them.

Rev 15:1 And I saw another sign in heaven, great and marvellous, seven angels having the seven last plagues; for in them is filled up the wrath of God.


How is your reading going on aion and aionios?

If we look at strongs they have aion and aionios meaning both eternal and age - eternal has no beginning and end and an age has a beginning and end - they can not mean both of those things
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Old 07-18-2009, 10:39 PM
 
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Default All mankind?

I can do the same thing as some and pull verses out of context, and give something that no one has even suspected. We are stupid, devoid of knowledge. But, isn't that what the Word says??

Jer 51:17
All mankind is stupid, devoid of knowledge; Every goldsmith is put to shame by his idols, For his molten images are deceitful, And there is no breath in them.


Or do we need to be called out?? We are Gentiles, right?

Act 15:17
SO THAT THE REST OF MANKIND MAY SEEK THE LORD, AND ALL THE GENTILES WHO ARE CALLED BY MY NAME,'


Or how about those in the place of hell?

Isa 66:24
"Then they will go forth and look On the corpses of the men Who have transgressed against Me. For their worm will not die And their fire will not be quenched; And they will be an abhorrence to all mankind."

All mankind seems to be used quite extensively, but in the context taken from other scriptures, it would seem that all mankind really isn't ALL MANKIND. How is something an abhorrence to ALL mankind, when they are talking about other men?
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Old 07-18-2009, 10:49 PM
 
Location: NC
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All mankind definitely in these passages

Romans 8:18-22
18. For I consider that the sufferings of this present time are not worthy to be compared with the glory that is to be revealed to us.19. For the anxious longing of the creation waits eagerly for the revealing of the sons of God.20. For the creation was subjected to futility, not willingly, but because of Him who subjected it, in hope21. that the creation itself also will be set free from its slavery to corruption into the freedom of the glory of the children of God.22. For we know that the whole creation groans and suffers the pains of childbirth together until now.

*hope=elpis=expectation

1 Corinthians 15:16-28
16. For if the dead are not raised, not even Christ has been raised;17. and if Christ has not been raised, your faith is worthless; you are still in your sins.18. Then those also who have fallen asleep in Christ have perished.19. If we have hoped in Christ in this life only, we are of all men most to be pitied.20. But now Christ has been raised from the dead, the first fruits of those who are asleep.21. For since by a man came death, by a man also came the resurrection of the dead.22. For as in Adam all die, so also in Christ all will be made alive.23. But each in his own order: Christ the first fruits, after that those who are Christ's at His coming,24. then comes the end, when He hands over the kingdom to the God and Father, when He has abolished all rule and all authority and power.25. For He must reign until He has put all His enemies under His feet.26. The last enemy that will be abolished is death.27. For He has put all things in subjection under His feet. But when He says, "All things are put in subjection," it is evident that He is excepted who put all things in subjection to Him.28. When all things are subjected to Him, then the Son Himself also will be subjected to the One who subjected all things to Him, so that God may be all in all.


Colossians 1:15-20
15. He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation.16. For by Him all things were created, both in the heavens and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities--all things have been created through Him and for Him.17. He is before all things, and in Him all things hold together.18. He is also head of the body, the church; and He is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead, so that He Himself will come to have first place in everything.19. For it was the Father's good pleasure for all the fullness to dwell in Him,20. and through Him to reconcile all things to Himself, having made peace through the blood of His cross; through Him, I say, whether things on earth or things in heaven.


Ephesians 1: 5-10
"He predestined us to adoption as sons through Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the kind intention of His will, to the praise of the glory of His grace which He freely bestowed on us in the Beloved. In Him we have redemption through His blood, the forgiveness of our trespasses, according to the riches of His grace, which He lavished upon us. In all wisdom and insight He made known to us the mystery of His will, according to His kind intention which He purposed in Him with a view to an administration suitable to the fulness of the times, that is the *summing up of all things in Christ, things in the heavens, and things upon the earth."

*summing up=anakephalaioomai=to gather together again in one, to reunite under one head as in Eph. 1 (mid. voice) (Hebrew/Greek Key Word Study)



God bless.
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Old 07-18-2009, 10:51 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ShanaBrown View Post
All mankind definitely in these passages

God bless.
Oh, but really not the others, right?
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Old 07-18-2009, 10:53 PM
 
Location: NC
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HotinAz, the context must be considered when reading "all mankind" and in the passages I shared, all mankind is referred to, included. Was Jesus sent to be the Savior of the world? God bless.
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