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Again, you must leave these links out, otherwise you look like you are advertising. I can't even begin to read your posts, because they are not from you, but rather are copied and pasted. At least it is what it looks like.
When I type, I ask the Spirit for help in dealing with Truth and falsehoods. I let my fingers do the typing, and whatever happens to be put down on this, is what you read. Jesus did not only come to condemn the false preachers, but rather also He came to save the "Lost sheep". Are you telling me now that every single person who has ever lived is a "Lost sheep"? Then pray tell me, who are the goats?
To try to wrap your mind around UR, you have to discount major parts of the Word. For myself, it has pretty much been reconciled, from Genesis to Revelation. I get it, from Adam's fall, to John seeing himself being born again. I understand what Jesus did, spending 3 1/2 years in ministry.
If He was "just" the Savior of the world, why the need to preach, and prophesy? Why the need to condemn falsehood? Why the need to do the miracles?
See, He is not "just" the Savior of the world, to those who believe. He is ALSO the King of kings, and Lord of lords. His Titles go beyond our wildest imaginations. Some we know, such as our High Priest, the Bridegroom, the Lion of the tribe of Judah, the King of Israel, the Son of God. But, there are, I am sure, many more we cannot even fathom at this time, in the flesh.
I like to read, don't get me wrong. Like I said, J Preston Eby is one of my favorites, for he has great spiritual insights. But, I don't have to agree with anything he has written, if it isn't true. I have read many people who mainstream would consider heretics. Like Joseph Smith, Ellen G White, Herbert Armstrong, C.S. Lewis, and even the "lost books" of the Bible.
Why? Because I rely on the Spirit for the Truth. If the Spirit was to "give" to you, a spiritual revelation that ONLY you out of billions understand, and you KNOW it is Truth, what would you do? Would you share it? Would you sell it, as most would? Think you might fall, after receiving it? Well, most people when given something so Spiritual so as to shake even the foundations of our faith, cower in fear of the reprisals other religious men would do to them. It takes a tremendous amount of FAITH, to stand there and take a beating, even to the death, for our King.
And then, others come along and TAKE the Spiritual Nuggets given to the few, and create for themselves a WHOLE NEW religous systems, not comepletely unlike what they came out of, but actually no better. If the first was false, then the second is just as false. Poison is still poison, no matter how diluted with water it is. But even though it is poison in part, the majority of it is still water. So take the good, and leave out the bad, and let the Spirit decide what is what.
Enough of the rant for now...peace!
In the light of what Hot has just said here, let everyone make up their own mind about it.
"When it comes to the final destination of the wicked, or unrighteous, Christians over the past two millenniums have divided themselves into three beliefs: 1. Eternal Torment, 2. Eternal Death (Annihilationism), and 3. Salvation of the whole world through Jesus Christ. Each of these views can be supported with Scriptures. Having been in all three groups, I know that there are sincere Bible centered believers in all of them. Obviously, all three cannot be true. Two of them have to be false."
Reading that article cemented my confidence that the Bible does in fact teach the eventual salvation of all fallen creatures from everything from which they need to be saved, INCLUDING THEIR STUBBORN WILLS, because of what Christ accomplished by His death and resurrection, through the power in the blood of His cross.
Last edited by rodgertutt; 07-19-2009 at 11:29 AM..
Reason: link added
I notice that Preterist is conspicuously absent from any of these discussions on UR. Preterist, do you have a position on UR, in defense or condemnation of it?
For anyone who truly believe in UR, this threat shouldn't scare them in the least. Go ahead and take the mark; bow down to the AC so you can buy and sell during the trib; avoid all the persecution of the Saints going on around you. Why? because you get a chance to repent taking the mark and worshiping the beast after you die; this way you can have your cake and eat it too. Yum-yum!
No, not true. You can never have your (delicious) cake and eat it too. Ask the prodigal son. He tried to have his cake and eat it too and he got to eat his rotten cake. Ask the Israelites who wanted flesh instead of manna. They got to eat that cake till it was stench coming out of their nostrils. So in a sense yes, God will feed you the cake you choose, but you won't be pleased with the taste of that cake!
No, not true. You can never have your (delicious) cake and eat it too. Ask the prodigal son. He tried to have his cake and eat it too and he got to eat his rotten cake. Ask the Israelites who wanted flesh instead of manna. They got to eat that cake till it was stench coming out of their nostrils. So in a sense yes, God will feed you the cake you choose, but you won't be pleased with the taste of that cake!
But the negative effects of eating the cake, though possibly severe, will be temporary and corrective.
But the negative effects of eating the cake, though possibly severe, will be temporary and corrective.
And that's why, if I were a full-blown UR, rather than see my family starved and then decapitated during the Great Tribulation, I'd willingly take the mark. After all, rotten cake is better than no cake at all! And I get to repent of it afterwards, too.
And that's why, if I were a full-blown UR, rather than see my family starved and then decapitated during the Great Tribulation, I'd willingly take the mark. After all, rotten cake is better than no cake at all! And I get to repent of it afterwards, too.
Yo, thrillobyte.
I can tell you sure didn't open that link! The Lake of Fire
Here is a quote from it.
"There should be no question remaining as to the certainty of this lake of fire; neither should there be any doubt as to the awful consequence of having to be cast into it. These Scriptures with their dreadful foreboding should be a fearful warning to all unthinking and foolish people who, because of their love for the world, the flesh, and the devil, have dared to ask why we should serve God now if all are going to be saved eventually. Such people have no love for God nor fear of God, and they manifest by what they say that their professed serving of God is only a pretense, arising - not from any true love for Him - but from fear of punishment. If there were no prospect of hell these would promptly tell God to go to hell and they would, themselves, go to the devil. It is not thus with those who truly love God, for they serve not from fear, but from pure love and devotion. Remove punishment completely from the universe, and they would still serve God with all their hearts."
For anyone who truly believe in UR, this threat shouldn't scare them in the least. Go ahead and take the mark; bow down to the AC so you can buy and sell during the trib; avoid all the persecution of the Saints going on around you. Why? because you get a chance to repent taking the mark and worshiping the beast after you die; this way you can have your cake and eat it too. Yum-yum!
Hi Thrillobyte,
Your understanding of the mark/antichrist is similar to what I believed before I started to learn about UR. But now I believe this understanding is incorrect.
Have you considered that your interpretation of the beast and the mark and the antichrist is perhaps not accurate here? Is there only one really scary giant antichrist that is going to appear in the "great end-times tribulation" and cut people's heads off and let families starve if they don't receive the mark? Is this really what Revelations is talking about? Always remember Revelations is fulled with symbols. These symbols are not meant to be taken literally, but the meaning behind the symbols is very literal. Of course we can debate the meaning of the symbols. Also remember Revelations is not just applicable for the end-times - it is applicable to every human and every generation that passed. It is the Revelation of Jesus Christ who is, was, and will be.
Scripture tells us there are many antichrists - not just one, and they have been around since before the time of John. As others may have suggested, I have seen the antichristand he is me! Who is the beast, the man of lawlessness, the son of perdition who sits in the temple of God?
Women already know it: Men are beasts! (and women are too!)
Ecc 3:18 I said in mine heart concerning the estate of the sons of men, that God might manifest them, and that they might see that they themselves are beasts
1 Cor 3:16 Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you?
1 Cor 6:19 Do you not know that your body is a temple of the Holy Spirit, who is in you, whom you have received from God?
Furthermore some might say they have already been declined buying and selling because they did not bear the mark of the beast. Buying and selling exactly what is the question.
Proverbs 23:23 Buy the truth and do not sell it; get wisdom, discipline and understanding
The mark of the beast is spiritual, not some microchip or tattoo. Many already have it as they effectively worship themselves and sit in the temple of God. Read this:
And that's why, if I were a full-blown UR, rather than see my family starved and then decapitated during the Great Tribulation, I'd willingly take the mark. After all, rotten cake is better than no cake at all! And I get to repent of it afterwards, too.
Well, I don't think anyone enters the kingdom of God without at some point losing their life for His sake. So in that case they get to eat rotten cake and still have something left undone that must be still be done to enter.
I have pondered long and hard over this doctrine in the last week or so. The scriptural inconsistencies to be found in the Bible between Divine election and universal reconcilation are so numerous as to be impossible to list without the aid of a computer, not to mention the lack of adequate space here. Does this make the Bible totally unreliable--a complete fraud, as the theory goes that one inconsistency in Divine-inspired text subjects the whole to ridicule? Certainly not. The problem, I've decided, lies not in the Word itself, but in the mess man has made of it over the last four, and especially the last two millennia by mangling the original texts so badly that the translations we read today are but a shell--a phantom of what the writers originally penned.
So I decided to discard everything outside the gospels and look only to the words of Jesus. Even then, I fear many of His sayings are not entirely accurate, as certain things He said seem to be in contradiction to one another (if we are to trust the texts).
I boiled it all down to Matt. 7:21, arguably one of the most famous passages in the entire Bible: "Not everyone who says to me, 'Lord, Lord' shall enter the kingdom of heaven."
Now let us strip away the superflous ..."who says to me, 'Lord, Lord'...." That leaves us with "Not everyone shall enter the kingdom of heaven" If Jesus had meant that all would enter heaven He would have said, "Everyone shall enter the kingdom of heaven." I think we can we agree on that. But, unfortunately, that nasty "not" gets in the way and ultimately nullifies the whole concept of universal reconcilation. Remember, I've thrown aside every other speaker OT and NT, since their writings, I've determined, are unreliable, not to mention the fact that Jesus' own words certainly would take precedence over anything Paul, Isaiah, or anyone else had to say. So we are left with those unalterable, inescapable, impossible-to-misinterpret eight words:
Not everyone shall enter the kingdom of heaven
I cannot get around these eight words in my mind. If someone can reconcile these eight words with universal reconcilation without resorting to Paul, or Isaiah, or any other biblical writers please help me to understand that Jesus, in saying "Not everyone shall enter the kingdom of heaven" really meant "Everyone shall enter the kingdom of heaven." I would be "eternally' (anion) grateful! (little Bible humor there)
I noticed that too...why is the author so emphatic about only Jews being saved?
"I was sent only to the lost sheep of the house of Israel." (Matthew 15:24)
"when the son of man (Jesus pbuh referring to himself) shall sit on the throne of his glory, ye (the disciples) also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel"(Matthew 19: 28)
And this:
It is Not Fair To Take The Children's Bread And Cast It To The Dogs. (HOLY BIBLE)Matthew 15:22-26
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Consequenses
