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Some will say that only a few are God's children, the rest are children of the devil. That may be true now, but I believe all will eventually be God's children, as this verse says all creation will join them:
Romans 8:19 For all creation is waiting eagerly for that future day when God will reveal who his children really are. 20 Against its will, all creation was subjected to God’s curse. But with eager hope, 21 the creation looks forward to the day when it will join God’s children in glorious freedom from death and decay.
Some will say that only a few are God's children, the rest are children of the devil. That may be true now, but I believe all will eventually be God's children, as this verse says all creation will join them:
Romans 8:19 For all creation is waiting eagerly for that future day when God will reveal who his children really are. 20 Against its will, all creation was subjected to God’s curse. But with eager hope, 21 the creation looks forward to the day when it will join God’s children in glorious freedom from death and decay.
Creation is not including human beings; everything in the universe but human beings.
Don't believe me look at verse 22 & 23
22For we know that the whole creation groans and suffers the pains of childbirth together until now.
23And not only this, but also we ourselves, having (the first fruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting eagerly for our adoption as sons, the redemption of our body.
There is a distinction in 22 and 23, using the groaning of the fallen creation to become perfect again(when you look at the beauty of the planet and the universe yet even when we marvel at it we must remember it is fallen and it's as if the creation is striving for that perfection it once had, fighting a losing battle) as a parallel with the ongoing groaning inside each elect's heart longing to go home and be reconciled to our Father.
Last edited by Fundamentalist; 07-20-2009 at 02:37 PM..
Creation is not including human beings; everything in the universe but human beings.
Creation is talking about everything, Fundamentalist. The sons of God are contrasted with all who are still in the corrupted state, including people who are not yet delivered from the slavery to corruption. Some translations say "creature" instead of "creation" James refers to believers as the firstfruits of God's creatures. Believers are also a new creation. The rest have yet to be delivered and changed. He makes all things new. God bless.
18For I reckon that the sufferings of this present time are not worthy to be compared with the glory which shall be revealed in us. 19For the earnest expectation of the creature waiteth for the manifestation of the sons of God. 20For the creature was made subject to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of him who hath subjected the same in *hope, 21Because the creature itself also shall be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God. 22For we know that the whole creation groaneth and travaileth in pain together until now. 23And not only they, but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, to wit, the redemption of our body. (YLT)
*hope=elpis=expectation
James1 17every good giving, and every perfect gift is from above, coming down from the Father of the lights, with whom is no variation, or shadow of turning; 18having counselled, He did beget us with a word of truth, for our being a certain first-fruit of His creatures.
Last edited by ShanaBrown; 07-20-2009 at 03:33 PM..
Creation is talking about everything, Fundamentalist. The sons of God are contrasted with all who are still in the corrupted state, including people who are not yet delivered from the slavery to corruption. Some translations say "creature" instead of "creation" James refers to believers as the firstfruits of God's creatures. Believers are also a new creation. The rest have yet to be delivered and changed. He makes all things new. God bless.
You would like it to be but it is CONTEXT! I agree that we are part of the creation but that is not whatTHIS VERSE is saying. You can't take a word and then smash it into ANY verse. That is bad theology.
It is in context, Fundamentalist. This verse is saying that the creation is to be delivered and changed into the freedom of the glory of the sons of God. Just because you may not believe that this is what is being stated here, doesn't mean that it isn't. Many believers disagree with you. The sons of God are a new creation and eventually all of creation will be a new creation in Christ Jesus.
creature/creation =ktisis=what is created, the sum total of what is created
Even the nonelect are a part of the creation of God , yes God created them, all of us Fundy.
God bless.
Last edited by ShanaBrown; 07-20-2009 at 03:34 PM..
22For we know that the whole creation groans and suffers the pains of childbirth together until now.
23And not only this, but also we ourselves, having (the first fruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting eagerly for our adoption as sons, the redemption of our body.
"23And not only this, but also we ourselves" what does this mean?
This is very simple....look at verse 22 and 23....22 is dealing directly with the creation and verse 19 but 23 IS NOT, it is a parallel of verse 19-22, 23 is dealing with human beings; as the creation groans in (verse 22) so does men's hearts for God in (verse 23). Every Christian in this room groans in their heart to be joined, reconciled with the Father.
The creation, including the nonelect, groans and suffers the pains of childbirth together until now. All, including the nonelect, were subject to futility by the Creator. All are to be delivered and changed, just as the sons of God are. Believers are the firstfruits of God's creation and are a new creation in Christ Jesus our Lord
creature/creation =ktisis=what is created, the sum total of what is created
Related passage
Colossians 1:15-20
15. He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation.16. For by Him all things were created, both in the heavens and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities--all things have been created through Him and for Him.17. He is before all things, and in Him all things hold together.18. He is also head of the body, the church; and He is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead, so that He Himself will come to have first place in everything.19. For it was the Father's good pleasure for all the fullness to dwell in Him,20. and through Him to reconcile all things to Himself, having made peace through the blood of His cross; through Him, I say, whether things on earth or things in heaven
Ro 8:21 that the creation itself, also, shall be freed from the slavery of corruption into the glorious freedom of the children of God.
There is no misunderstanding here. "The creation itself SHALL be freed" there is no "in context" other than some persons assertion. of which no one is required to believe.
Ro 8:23 Yet not only so, but we ourselves also, who |have the firstfruit of the spirit, we' sameourselves also, are groaning in ourselves, awaiting the sonship, the deliverance of our body.
Of course, the issue of this being encouragement for believers as if it does not apply to unbelievers is moot. Believers at any given time seem to be the only ones that start getting concerned about whats going on. And unbelievers will find no meaning in the words of encouragement, but the passage applies to them becuse they indeed are promised deliverance, whether they know it or not at the time.
When I was an unbeliever, the passage applied to me, but I did not have any understanding that caused me to see the encouragement for believers since I was not one.
Now that I am a believer, I see that my unbelief did not prevent God from working on me to understand the promise.
The creation, including the nonelect, groans and suffers the pains of childbirth together until now. All, including the nonelect, were subject to futility by the Creator.............
No body is left out
Can we please leave the presupposition of universalism out of this, for that matter Calvinism just read the verses in the correct context.
Why are you bringing up another verse?, DEAL WITH THESE VERSES. It has nothing to do with the context of this verse since it is very specific on who and what it is dealing with. You are smashing words into passages. This is bad theology-You are taking scripture out of context. I can do the same too.
I asked you a question in my previous post.
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God bless.
