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Seriously why read your bible. In fact Christians should just throw away their bibles and make up every kind of nonsense as they go...take everything out of context because it doesn't matter as long as it "FEELS" right
So you disagree that the True Light which enlightens every man has come into the world? (every man, not just the elect) God bless.
22For we know that the whole creation groans and suffers the pains of childbirth together until now.
23And not only this, but also we ourselves, having (the first fruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting eagerly for our adoption as sons, the redemption of our body.
"23And not only this, but also we ourselves" what does this mean?
This is very simple....look at verse 22 and 23....22 is dealing directly with the creation and verse 19 but 23 IS NOT, it is a parallel of verse 19-22, 23 is dealing with human beings; as the creation groans in (verse 22) so does men's hearts for God in (verse 23). Every Christian in this room groans in their heart to be joined, reconciled with the Father.
THIS IS BASIC HERMENEUTICS
Fundy, I read through the thread and I'm not sure what your dispute is.
Verse 21 is about the whole creation. You say it above. The whole creation includes everything, and everybody. But specifically it is talking about the non-elect being joined with the elect so they are all children of God.
Romans 8:21 the creation looks forward to the day when it will join God’s children in glorious freedom from death and decay.
Creation is not including human beings; everything in the universe but human beings.
Human beings are not creation?
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Don't believe me look at verse 22 & 23
22For we know that the whole creation groans and suffers the pains of childbirth together until now.
23And not only this, but also we ourselves, having (the first fruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting eagerly for our adoption as sons, the redemption of our body.
There is a distinction in 22 and 23, using the groaning of the fallen creation to become perfect again(when you look at the beauty of the planet and the universe yet even when we marvel at it we must remember it is fallen and it's as if the creation is striving for that perfection it once had, fighting a losing battle) as a parallel with the ongoing groaning inside each elect's heart longing to go home and be reconciled to our Father.
I don't understand your analysis. Verse 22 is all, verse 23 is emphasis on "we ourselves", specifically the elect I suppose.
Fundy, I read through the thread and I'm not sure what your dispute is.
Verse 21 is about the whole creation. You say it above. The whole creation includes everything, and everybody. But specifically it is talking about the non-elect being joined with the elect so they are all children of God.
Romans 8:21 the creation looks forward to the day when it will join God’s children in glorious freedom from death and decay.
Seems clear cut. What is the problem?
This has nothing to do with the elect, when I say elect, I mean beloved, Christian.
Verse 19 has nothing to do with humans beings period. It is everything in the physical universe other than us.
Yes human beings are creation but not in that verse.
I don't understand your analysis. Verse 22 is all, verse 23 is emphasis on "we ourselves", specifically the elect I suppose.
He is showing a parallel of the creation groaning for perfection, that purpose it once had to believer's hearts groaning to be with Him. When you were an unbeliever, was your heart groaning? We groan for His return!? which is the word, "revealing" an unveiling
Yes, but I didn't know what it was groaning for. God has placed a need for our Creator in all of our hearts. The lost are said to be blinded and deceived. God bless.
Yes, it is in that verse. The creation includes what is created and people, including the nonelect, are creatures of God. Believers are the firstfruits of God's creatures. God is the Savior of all men, especially of believers. God bless.
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creature/creation =ktisis=what is created, the sum total of what is created
Yes, but I didn't know what it was groaning for. God has placed a need for our Creator in all of our hearts. The lost are said to be blinded and deceived. God bless.
Really go ask an atheist if he feels a groaning? if the lost are blinded and deceived...what made them that way and how do you see?
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Human beings are not creation?
The creation includes what is created and people, including the nonelect, are creatures of God. Believers are the firstfruits of God's creatures. God is the Savior of all men, especially of believers. God bless.
