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That's not what you said. You said (according to my view) that man has to be disobeident in order to forgive. I am a man. I do not have to be disobedient to forgive.
The point is, I did not say that man being disobedient is part of man becoming like Christ. I'm saying that God intended each of us to be like Christ including forgiving sinners, overcoming evil with good, etc. and that requires someone to forgive and an enemry to love. But doing evil is not part of becoming like Christ.
Ok, but if God planned man to be disobedeint in order to be able to overcome evil with good etc. in order to become like Christ what is the difference from what I said?
He didn't say anything is "there" in the greek text. If you think he said that you misunderstand what he's saying.
No. The greek scholars would understand him the same way I do. You are misunderstanding him if you think there are any physical markers in the text. The phrase in question is no where near "Christ" in the text. He is saying that other translators did not notice that the phrase in question could be applied to Christ via a paranthetical phrase, and since it could be applied to Christ, it must be because to apply to Herod etc. would be "impious and absurd". He's doing the same thing you are doing.
If you read Psalm 2 which is where the qoute comes from its about Herod and the boys trying to stop Christs reign, which matches up with what I said and Clakres translation.
Ok, but if God planned man to be disobedeint in order to be able to overcome evil with good etc. in order to become like Christ what is the difference from what I said?
You said "Man did not have to be disobedient to... forgive the trespasses against him"
Which mischaracterizes my view into "Man must be disobedient to forgive sins" which I never said.
If you read Psalm 2 which is where the qoute comes from its about Herod and the boys trying to stop Christs reign, which matches up with what I said and Clakres translation.
I have no problem with you or Clarke making theological or other arguments to try to prove that there should be a parenthesis there in the translation. I'm just trying to make it clear that he's not saying there are some physical parentheses in the greek text that went unnoticed.
the Head of the body cannot say to the feet I have no need of you.
Did you really just thumbs up a post that says repentance is not a work of God? And you wonder why I believe the free will doctrine makes an idol out of man's will.
If you read Psalm 2 which is where the qoute comes from its about Herod and the boys trying to stop Christs reign, which matches up with what I said and Clakres translation.
Psalms 2:1 Why do the heathen rage, and the people imagine a vain thing? 2 The kings of the earth set themselves, and the rulers take counsel together, against the LORD, and against his anointed, saying, 3 Let us break their bands asunder, and cast away their cords from us
We already knew they were gather together against Christ to kill him from Acts and other scriptures. How does this indicate anything about whether God predestined it?
To me this passage is conclusive:
Isaiah 53:10 Yet it pleased the LORD to bruise him; he hath put him to grief: when thou shalt make his soul an offering for sin, he shall see his seed, he shall prolong his days, and the pleasure of the LORD shall prosper in his hand.
Last edited by Thy Kingdom Come; 08-23-2009 at 11:02 PM..
Did you really just thumbs up a post that says repentance is not a work of God? And you wonder why I believe the free will doctrine makes an idol out of man's will.
The point I took out of what he said was God does not repent for us, we do the repenting.
You said "Man did not have to be disobedient to... forgive the trespasses against him"
Which mischaracterizes my view into "Man must be disobedient to forgive sins" which I never said.
But that is not what I intended Bob.
But you still did not answer my question.
If God planned for man to be disobedient in order for man to overcome evil with good, etc. in order to be made like Christ how is disobedience than not a part of the process?
If God planned for man to be disobedient in order for man to overcome evil with good, etc. in order to be made like Christ how is disobedience than not a part of the process?
It's a necessary part of the process, but it is not part any man's process of being conformed to the image of Christ. YOUR sinning is not an ingredient to you becoming like Christ. YOUR forgiving a sinner is. But you need somone to forgive in order to forgive.
By suffering we learn obedience.
Hebrews 5:8 Though he were a Son, yet learned he obedience by the things which he suffered;
How did Christ suffer? At the hands of evil people.
Last edited by Thy Kingdom Come; 08-23-2009 at 11:28 PM..
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the Head of the body cannot say to the feet I have no need of you.
