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Where did I say that? I think you confused me with Ironmaw.
But even so I still don't fault the translators, if they were indeed under political pressure (which is most likely).
Guilty as charged ... I mean come on people, it is called the KING JAMES VERSION ...
Quote:
King James disapproved of the Geneva Bible because of its Calvinistic leanings. He also frowned on what he considered to be seditious marginal notes on key political texts. A marginal note for Exodus 1:9 indicated that the Hebrew midwives were correct in disobeying the Egyptian king's orders, and a note for 2 Chronicles 15:16 said that King Asa should have had his mother executed and not merely deposed for the crime of worshipping an idol. The King James Version of the Bible grew out of the king's distaste for these brief but potent doctrinal commentaries. He considered the marginal notes to be a political threat to his kingdom.
Not to say the Geneva version was all that much better, as many of the false translations were already made in the Latin Vulgate ... Such as the various translations of the word aion into seculum (proper translation) and aeternum (false translation) ...
Again, we see a bad translation. Here you are saying that aionios means "life pertaining to the eons to come". Well guess what, ETers are going to devour your interpretation just as I can with this verse:
Rom 16:25 Now to him that is of power to stablish you according to my gospel, and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery, which was kept secret since the world began,
Now if we interpreted that like you said then it would mean kept secret pertaining to the ages to come. See how that interpretation fails.
Paul
You are repeating yourself Paul. You made exactly the same argument before on post #381.
You must have missed the response to it by Eusebius on the second half of post #402.
Last edited by rodgertutt; 10-02-2009 at 06:05 PM..
Reason: addition
You people make me laugh, sitting there at your computer, with stuffed bellys It is absolutely sad.
How do you know what our circumstances are Fundy?
First you say legoman is full of pride, and now you say URs have stuffed bellys.
Do you know what is "absolutely sad" to me?
That anyone can do so much laughing as Calvinist Fundamentalist does on his posts, or that they can even ever crack a smile for that matter, all the while believing that God created some of His creatures to sustain them alive in an inescapapble state of eternal suffering forever, presumably for the purpose of eternally demonstrating to everyone how "holy" He is.
Several Calvinists have told me that the fact that I can't believe that shows that I am not one of the elect and I therefore am going to have to suffer forever.
That was the kind of thinking that caused my twelve year breakdown 1966-78. I'm 70 years old now.
If I truly believed the Bible teaches that, I would choose to live out my life as an agnostic, hoping to find out after I die that God is not really like that.
Fortunately for me I learned there are people like Ray Prinzing (my hero and mentor), and Ray's friend J. Preston Eby, and another friend of both of them, Canadian, George Hawtin, who see an infinitely different God in the Bible. The writings of all three of these men can be Googled up on the internet.
That anyone can do so much laughing as Calvinist Fundamentalist does on his posts, or that they can even ever crack a smile for that matter, all the while believing that God created some of His creatures to sustain them alive in an inescapapble state of eternal suffering forever, presumably for the purpose of eternally demonstrating to everyone how "holy" He is.
Several Calvinists have told me that the fact that I can't believe that shows that I am not one of the elect and I therefore am going to have to suffer forever.
That heinous doctrine is pure Satanic evil and has nothing to do with God.
Hi Lifesigns64. I'm saying there that God has desired to save all and will not fail in doing so (He can't fail - He is God). He would fail if he didn't save everyone. Also, the Greek Word is the basis for the translations of "eternal" or "everlasting" in the King James version of the Bible and many other translations. This is in ERROR, the word Aionios CANNOT mean "eternal" or "everlasting". The word Aionios refers to something that exists in the present age and will continue to exist beyond the present age. For example, let's look at a verse where it is used:
Mat 25:46 And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.
In both of those places that I have bolded the same Greek word of "aionios" is used. Now notice that it applies everlasting to the word punishment. The word punishment there is from the Greek word "Kolasis" which means to "curtail". If you were to curtail someone from doing something then you would never reach the point of curtailment if you were doing that curtailing forever. Therefore, aionios cannot mean everlasting or eternal.
So what does aionios mean? - It means that the thing described (aionios is an adjective) will continue to BE beyond this age. So if we have AIONIOS Life - then it means that Life is available in this age and shall continue beyond this age. If we have aionios punishment then that means the punishment is in this age and shall continue to be in the next age. It doesn't address when things end (as many here that are universalists shall falsely contend). It only tells you from what point something shall continue which is the boundary of the present age.
Hope this helps, if not please ask questions.
Paul
Hey Trettep, thanks for the clarification. It made it clear and I now understand your post. I also stumbled across a post of yours in another thread to Verna, and I now have a clearer understanding of your beliefs, the word AIONOS.
So the quetion I have is about the punishment that will continue in the next age . . . . what is the punishment . . . in your belief is it the lake of fire? And that people are made new after that? Or is it something else? Can you expand for me so that I can understand, because I haven't come across that yet in some of the articles that I've read regarding. Thank you & Blessings, Lifesigns64
Dear Paul (Trettep)
Obviously there is a great revelation in knowing that God is the aionios Theos A.K.A. the "eonian God." It lets us know Who is actually running the show.
There is also assurance in knowing we will have eonian life or live pertaining to the eons to come. We are promised to live during the greatest two final eons out of all the previous eons which went before. All those former eons will end and be taken over by the last two eons.
The nice thing about eonian chastening is to know it is not eternal. It too is pertaining to the eon (as to Matthew 25:46). This assures us that the chastening will not be eternal.
Paul (Trettep) Kosmos is world. Kosmos in not in Romans 16:26; aionios is.
Rom 16:25 Now to Him Who is able to establish you in accord with my evangel, and the heralding of Christ Jesus in accord with the revelation of a secret hushed in times eonian,
Rom 16:26 yet manifested now and through prophetic scriptures,
The secret was hushed in times pertaining to the eons which went before. Yet now the secret is manifested.
Romans 16:25:
"25 The importance of this closing benediction is apparent from the fact that it was written by the apostle with his own hand after Tertius had finished the epistle. Paul characterizes the great themes of his epistle, my gospel and the proclamation of Jesus Christ in accord with the revelation of a secret hushed in times eonian(conciliation), in contrast with the gospel of God (1:1) which He promised before. The conciliation was not made known through the ancient prophets, but through prophetic writings, such as this epistle and 2 Corinthians. It is of principal importance that we see the point the apostle makes here, for otherwise we shall not appreciate the unique, distinctive character of the conciliation, which is first set forth in this epistle. The teaching of the fifth to the eighth chapters and especially the eleventh chapter is absolutely unknown in the prophets. In the latter all blessing comes to the nations through Israel as the channel. The conciliation comes because Israel is thrust aside. The prophets would lead us to infer that Israel's apostasy would bar all possibility of blessing to the nations. The conciliation was a secret likely knew nothing of, for it makes Israel's defection the ground of worldwide, unbounded blessing to the nations until Israel is again in God's reckoning." (A.E. Knoch, Concordant Commentary).
Thank you for that good response to Paul's (Trettep's) reasonings Eusebius.
It seems to me that Paul's (Trettep's) greatest concern as a fellow UR (i.e. on our side of the issue) is that if we can't prove that aionios sometimes means everlasting then ETers will argue that both the life of God might come to an end, or at least that God will be seen to be somehow "limited" and therefore will not receive the glory that is due to His Name, and also that the life of the believer might come to an end too.
What I wish Paul (Trettep) could understand is that neither concern is warranted as demonstrated in detail by this link. There simply is no place in the Bible where aionios translated as a limted period of time does not make perfect sense.
THE EONS OF THE BIBLE WITH CONCORDANCE The eons of the Bible With Concordance, God’s purpose of the eons.
Although there are occasions where (by coincidence) it would not be wrong to perceive aionios as everlasting, there is no etymological necessity in the word itself to so translate it anywhere in the Bible, as demonstrated in the above link.
Rather than weakening the UR position (like Paul (Trettep) thinks it does), I perceive that insisting that aionios should always be translated as a limted period of time in the Bible, (like Young, Concordant, Rotherham, Wilson, Clementson, Scarlett, and many others always translate it), actually strengthens the UR position, as explained in the above link.
Paul, (Trettep) did you ever read the contents of the above link in an effort to try to understand our point of view?
Last edited by rodgertutt; 10-02-2009 at 10:08 PM..
Reason: addition
Hey Trettep, thanks for the clarification. It made it clear and I now understand your post. I also stumbled across a post of yours in another thread to Verna, and I now have a clearer understanding of your beliefs, the word AIONOS.
So the quetion I have is about the punishment that will continue in the next age . . . . what is the punishment . . . in your belief is it the lake of fire? And that people are made new after that? Or is it something else? Can you expand for me so that I can understand, because I haven't come across that yet in some of the articles that I've read regarding. Thank you & Blessings, Lifesigns64
Well first off consider the fact that your being punished now - did you know that? Yes, we all are. What is that punishment? - it is the condemnation that was pronounced upon Adam. Yep, we all are experiencing the fact that we must toil and die. Why? because we are all of the body of Adam. The only way to escape that is to not be born of the body of Adam. Hence Jesus Christ - born of a virgin thus not under condemnation and a perfect sacrifice to redeem us.
The word punishment is from the Greek word Kolasis which means a punishment as a result of Kolazo which is a curtailing punishment. That means the punishment inflicted is inflicted to curtail something. So it can't be eternal otherwise it would never accomplish the CURTAILMENT part. So this tells us that there is going to be aionios curtailment. That means there is going to be FURTHER curtailing that happens beyond this age. The lake of fire is the Holy Spirit. In fact the Hebrew Gospel of Matthew shows John the Baptist explaining that the one who comes after him would baptise with the Fire of the Holy Spirit. Recall that God makes His minsters a FLAME of FIRE. Also realize that baptisms take place in a lake of water typically (water also typifies the Holy Spirit). But in this case the Fire of the Holy Spirit typifys that which removes the dross from the metal such that was emerges from the fire is PRECIOUS. So this LAKE of FIRE is a GREAT event that is GOOD to those that experience it. In other words HELL (as many call this event) is GOOD!!!!!!! Yes, let me say that again - Hell is GOOD - God is working GOOD towards ALL! This is all going to sound very strange to you but I'm not hear to give you the mainstream message or to give you the message that is well received. I'm going to give you what I see in the scriptures about a God that loves His own efforts (He who knows the end from the beginning that brought us all into existence for His purpose). He doesn't Fail and we are unable to thwart His desires for us. Remember that God loves you and He will save you and everyone you ever loved and better yet He will save anyone you ever hated by removing their hatred. How wonderful is this Awesome God!!! Praise Jesus Christ for giving us such a wonder joy.
Thank you for that good response to Paul's reasonings Eusebius.
It seems to me that Paul's greatest concern as a fellow UR (i.e. on our side of the issue) is that if we can't prove that aionios sometimes means everlasting then ETers will argue that both the life of God might come to an end, or at least that God will be seen to be somehow "limited" and therefore will not receive the glory that is due to His Name, and also that the life of the believer might come to an end too.
What I wish Paul could understand is that neither concern is warranted as demonstrated in detail by this link. There simply is no place in the Bible where aionios translated as a limted period of time does not make perfect sense.
THE EONS OF THE BIBLE WITH CONCORDANCE The eons of the Bible With Concordance, God’s purpose of the eons.
Although there are occasions where (by coincidence) it would not be wrong to perceive aionios as everlasting, there is no etymological necessity in the word itself to so translate it anywhere in the Bible, as demonstrated in the above link.
Rather than weakening the UR position (like Paul thinks it does), I perceive that insisting that aionios should always be translated as a limted period of time in the Bible, (like Young, Concordant, Rotherham, Wilson, Clementson, Scarlett, and many others always translate it), actually strengthens the UR position, as explained in the above link.
Paul, did you ever read the contents of the above link in an effort to try to understand our point of view?
Hey Lifesigns, look at this post. Look at how I get treated. You said you understand what I stated but did you at anytime see where I ever stated that I believe aionios specifically means eternal? - no, but this is the scourge I'm under and I accept it.
I need these others to be set apart from them so that you can see.
Hey Lifesigns, look at this post. Look at how I get treated. You said you understand what I stated but did you at anytime see where I ever stated that I believe aionios specifically means eternal? - no, but this is the scourge I'm under and I accept it.
I need these others to be set apart from them so that you can see.
Notice that there is no place where aionios as a limited period of time does not make perfect sense.
No "scourge" involved here. Just a different point of view.
Take yer pick.
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Response to paul by eusebius
