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None of us who had a nervous breakdown over this issue wanted that to happen. We wanted to trust God about it, but we couldn't.
I'm glad you can, because I wouldn't want you to go through the hell that we went through over not being able to trust God about it.
In my case that hell lasted twelve years 1966-78. (see my Rodger Tutt blog on this forum)
I think the greatest of all manifestations of God's grace in action on this earth is that people can believe in endless suffering for anyone, and not have a breakdown thinking about it.
Even though you can't understand it thrillobyte, there are many people in this world who simply cannot love a god who would let any creature suffer forever, and they suffer intensely over not being able to love Him.
Because I know experientially what the contents of links that have done, and are doing for many people (including me), I will keep on telling others about them until the day that I die, which may not be all that long since I am nearly 71 years old.
I can identify with Rodger, for those that roll their eyes and say "not again", I can assure you that although I may be deceived, I'm not lying when I say I went through the same thing as Rodger
I'd also like to add that I'm a much less sensitive person than Rodger, I still support capital punishment and have little empathy and sympathy for child molesters and drug lords and such people, I'm also not a very loving or lovable person
Its amazing that a person such as myself could spend more than 18 months in tears and in a blind panic at the mere thought of anyone ending up in ET forever
Maybe even one day I can become truly loving and perhaps even be lovable, and even know something like true love, joy and happiness
None of us who had a nervous breakdown over this issue wanted that to happen. We wanted to trust God about it, but we couldn't.
Why would one fear hell? If one believes that they're forgiven by the Grace of God, through Jesus Christ, there is no fear!
Fear is fear of the unknown! If one doesn't have the assurance of their salvation and fear judgment, hell, then yes, they have something in their lives that is not right with God.....usually it is unbelief! (not saying you, Rodger).
One's fear of judgment comes from a heart that does not believe God is capable of saving you! So one will fear any and everything. That is the trickery of sin.....
1John 4:17-19 Love has been perfected among us in this: that we may have boldness in the day of judgment; because as He is, so are we in this world. There is no fear in love; but perfect love casts out fear, because fear involves torment. But he who fears has not been made perfect in love. We love Him because He first love us.
I do know a lot about fear, panic attacks, etc.,......I struggled with it for many years! But the very scripture up above and a whole lot of saints praying, God delivered me from that fear and what it created in my life. Which I don't need to go there with you......because fear no longer controls my life, God perfected His love in my heart, that I should not fear no more.
Ur is a false teaching and represents a false peace! Trusting the Lord Jesus with one's WHOLE heart delivers one from the lies of Satan whom wants to keep one bound in fear, confusion, doubt and he will use anything to do that.....he will even come as the light and bring a false peace through false teachings and many other things to deceive that one.
Rodger.....I really do know what I'm talking about! See that is the problem when other's project upon other people they don't know what they are talking about because they don't disclose all their laundry on-line!!!
Believe me.....I wanted to die (commit suicide) at one time in my life, because the grips of fear that kept me in bondage and tormented my mind! One day shortly after that day, the Holy Spirit broke through that power of darkness and brought that very scripture to my heart, mind and the revelation that came into my heart overcame and broke the chains that bound me to fear! And I haven't been the same since....Hallelujuah, Jesus, He does set the captive free, free from sin, fear, whatever comes to that child of God that tries to separate their relationship with Him!!
Believe me.....I wanted to die (commit suicide) at one time in my life, because the grips of fear that kept me in bondage and tormented my mind! One day shortly after that day, the Holy Spirit broke through that power of darkness and brought that very scripture to my heart, mind and the revelation that came into my heart overcame and broke the chains that bound me to fear! And I haven't been the same since....Hallelujuah, Jesus, He does set the captive free, free from sin, fear, whatever comes to that child of God that tries to separate their relationship with Him!!
Blessings
Well, that is the problem with the objection to God doing this for everyone. While you tell the story giving credit to God and none to yourself, you cannot explain why God will not do that for everyone within your system of belief without turning it around to yourself.
You will have to say that you chose to respond to it which diminishes the reality of what you first wrote.
It is actually Christian universalism that teaches that what God did for YOU he will do for everyone, but it will be in Gods time and even if it takes something after death, it will happen. God never gives up because he is NOT tardy as to the promise (as men percieve tardiness)
While people can try to tear down that wonderful message of GOOD NEWS, the reality is indeed that it is wonderful to know that while it may appear some die and face an eternity of misery, God is not limited by our death any more than he was limited in changing you without anything required of your own will.
the hearts of men are evil, people can love an eternal torturer as long as he would not torture them or their beloved ones, but only other men.
I personally see no moral problem with annihilation, it would be the logical consequence, the wages of sin is death, no man deserves life, so if he is disobedient to God, God might take away the gift of life forevermore.
I personally see annhilationists closer to universalists than to teachers of endless hell.
I've never believed in ET/Hell just due to the translations of eternal, everlasting,sheol and hades and the way they were translated from the Hebrew to Greek. The original Hebrew never had the meaning that we give it today. And I have never believed in the concept of "Hell" as it is taught today. It clearly says that death and hell "Hades" are thrown into the lake of fire and to equate those two things as the same place is not biblically correct. How can you throw hell into hell...not real sensible.
With that said, I am still on the fence with annihilationism, but heavily leaning toward UR, only due to the fact that if we can't come to God until He calls us (1 Cor 2:14, Jn 6:44, Jn 3:3-8, Rom 8:28-30, etc...) why would he let so many, that He chooses not to call, just die. This is what I am facing and studying right now. I know that the judgment/lake of fire/second death are things that believers face while living and possibly will continue after death in some form because we have to be purified before we can stand before the Lord and we know that the second death has no power over us nor can it hurt us because Jesus is with us...the scripture is pretty clear about that and there are several scriptures stating we will be salted with fire. But, what does that mean for unbelievers who are not called by God...do they then face these things after death and are purified and redeemed then? It's a slippery slope to say we know for sure because we really don't and I hate to put something out there that is not 100% accurate. If God uses a person for evil purposes during his lifetime (like He did Pharoah), I have to believe He has a plan so that those He does not call may be redeemed also...it just falls more in line with who God is, His mercy and His justice and why He sent His son to begin with.
Ur is a false teaching and represents a false peace!
Blessings
ETERNAL TORMENT, ANNIHILATION, OR CHRISTIAN BIBLICAL UNIVERSALSIM
The following is an expostion on which one is Scriptural.
Thank you for sharing your testimony Latte'Chic.
But many of us have a very different testimony from yours and after careful studying we have concluded that UR is in fact the Scriptural truth.
Gary Amirault introduces one of his expositions by saying
"When it comes to the final destination of the wicked, or unrighteous, Christians over the past two millenniums have divided themselves into three beliefs: 1. Eternal Torment, 2. Eternal Death (Annihilationism), and 3. Salvation of the whole world through Jesus Christ. Each of these views can be supported with Scriptures. Having been in all three groups, I know that there are sincere Bible centered believers in all of them. Obviously, all three cannot be true. Two of them have to be false."
What Gary expounds in this link is what brings people like me peace.
Your opinion is that Gary's point of view brings "false peace," but it is a peace that enabled me to escape from a twelve year breakdown 1966-78, and a peace that I will enjoy till the day that I die which may be soon since I am 71 years old.
You are entitled to your opinion Latte'Chic, and you no doubt will keep trying to convince other people that you are right.
Similarly, it will be my great pleasure to keep offering the reasons to anyone who wants to check them out that you are not right about what the Bible teaches.
Since we are allowed to post a maximum of two links per post I would also like to guide interested readers to the following link which is a good site for those who would like to understand why we URs believe the way that we do about what the Bible teaches.
UNIVERSAL SALVATION UNIVERSITY Universal Salvation University
Last edited by rodgertutt; 09-15-2009 at 08:46 AM..
Reason: spelling
Well, that is the problem with the objection to God doing this for everyone. While you tell the story giving credit to God and none to yourself, you cannot explain why God will not do that for everyone within your system of belief without turning it around to yourself.
You will have to say that you chose to respond to it which diminishes the reality of what you first wrote.
It is actually Christian universalism that teaches that what God did for YOU he will do for everyone, but it will be in Gods time and even if it takes something after death, it will happen. God never gives up because he is NOT tardy as to the promise (as men percieve tardiness)
While people can try to tear down that wonderful message of GOOD NEWS, the reality is indeed that it is wonderful to know that while it may appear some die and face an eternity of misery, God is not limited by our death any more than he was limited in changing you without anything required of your own will.
LOL....phazelwood, you keep telling yourself that!!
LOL....phazelwood, you keep telling yourself that!!
I think it's very interesting that although all URs started out as ETers, I have never heard of a UR becoming an ETer AFTER being aware of the evidence that the Bible teaches universal salvation.
Latte'Chic will no doubt reply that it is because Satan has been able to deceive so many people away from the truth.
But as a UR, I in turn will reply that we are convinced, and very glad that we have found out what the Bible teaches that Jesus is really like.
I think it's very interesting that although all URs started out as ETers, I have never heard of a UR becoming an ETer AFTER being aware of the evidence that the Bible teaches universal salvation.
Latte'Chic will no doubt reply that it is because Satan has been able to deceive so many people away from the truth.
But as a UR, I in turn will reply that we are convinced, and very glad that we have found out what the Bible teaches that Jesus is really like.
NO, I won't give Satan any credit!!
It is the individuals choice to walk away from Jesus and His truth! The person choses to listen to their sin of unbelief, doubting the Scripture and God's Holy Spirit!
It is your choice Rodger and others to why you walked away......not Satan fault! Can't blame no one but yourselves!
And when people stop pointing the finger at other things, people and take the responsibility of their sin, only then will the hearts be changed!
I think it's very interesting that although all URs started out as ETers, I have never heard of a UR becoming an ETer AFTER being aware of the evidence that the Bible teaches universal salvation.
A year or so ago, I was only aware of the ET teaching, I did not know about UR or annihilation
I agree with Sven, I don't have a problem with the teaching of annihilation myself, which is still where I'm still slightly mostly inclined to at present
I'm not 100% convinced of UR, I don't see how one gets out of the lake of fire once one is cast in, however, what happens is 100% God's will and not mans will, if there is an eternal hell, then that's exactly what God would have wanted, the difference between annihilation and eternal torment is that annihilation at least, shows far, far more compassion and mercy for the victim than ET
And I agree with ChristyGrl's post
And I don't normally air my laundry in public either, but the thought that the vast majority of mankind is headed for unbearable torture and the effect it has had on me personally is enough for me to let go of my vow of silence which I normally adhere to, swallow my pride and to voice my opinion on the subject, I'm sorry if my utter loathing and hatred with an unending passion of the ET doctrine gets up people's noses, but as this was a thread about this subject, I thought I would voice my opinion on the matter
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Eternal torment, annihilation, or universalsim?
