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Quote:
Originally Posted by Eusebius Dear Paul, I wish you could understand the relationship between the adjective and noun. You keep saying it is incorrect to say that aionios is pertaining to the ages. So I guess I will have to state this little grammar lesson yet again for you:
America = noun American = adjective Obama is the American president. His presidency pertains to America.
Heaven = noun Heavenly = adjective The heavenly angel visited Mary. The angel's residency pertains to heaven.
Aion/Eon = noun Aionion/Eonian = adjective "According to the injunction of the eonian God" (Rom.16:26). God's Godness is pertaining to the eons. His subjectorhood and placership is pertaining to the eons. Once God is All in all (1 Cor.15:28) and once the eons end, God will no longer be the eonian God for there will be no more eons to be God over. He will then be God, All in all.
Aion/Eon = noun Aionion/Eonian = adjective "And these shall be going away into eonian chastening yet the just into life eonian" (Matt.25:46). Both the chastening and the life the NATIONS get is of the same duration: pertaining to the eon.
Do you see the grammatical relationship between America/American, Heaven/Heavenly and Eon/Eonian?
Eusebius
But I do get it. If you read a little more carefully aionios can mean "pertaining to the eons" which went before, "pertaining to the eon" to come (the 1000 year long eon) or "pertaining to the eons" of the two future eons. It's an adjective, Paul.
I’m convinced that after we have thought the very best thoughts about God, we can be sure that He is even better than that because He is able to do above what we can even think, Ephesians 3:20. And IMHO I cannot think any higher thoughts than universal transformation.
I believe that after our resurrection from the dead God will eventually somehow transform every second of everyone's suffering into something better that it happened.
That includes both the unexplained and unjustifiable suffering that we all experience in varying degrees, as well as what the Bible calls "kolasis aionion" which means age-during corrective chastisement that everyone who needs it will experience.
I believe that God will eventually fit every unique individual into His master plan in a positive way that necessitates their unique temporary involvement in evil and suffering that will enable God to manifest, and glorify, and magnify the many facets of His character in a way that uniquely involves that person, and everyone else involved in that person’s life too.
I believe that God has both the ability and the intention to save all fallen creatures from everything from which they need to be saved, and He will not fail to do so.
I believe that God's determination, within the wise counsel of His DECRETIVE will which is that which MUST occur, to eventually rid all of creation from suffering, will in every case, overcome the strongest will that is temporarily opposed to God's PRECEPTIVE will which is what His creatures OUGHT to do.
I believe the only mistake that I am probably making is in grossly underestimating just how gloriously God will achieve this universal transformation through what Christ accomplished for everyone by His death and resurrection, through the power in the blood of his cross. That is the kind of God that I see in the Bible.
Realizing that he is including everyone without exception, the following quote by universalist Dr. Leslie Weatherhead nicely sums up what I believe.
“God’s purposes are so vast and glorious, beyond all guessing now, that when they are achieved and consummated, all our sufferings and sorrows of today, even the agonies that nearly break our faith, the disasters that well nigh overwhelm us, shall, seen from that fair country where God’s age long dreams come true, bulk as little as bulk now the pieces of a broken toy upon a nursery floor, over which, thinking that all our little world was in ruins, we cried ourselves to sleep.”
Here is a glorious exposition on the subject!
CHRIST TRIUMPHANT - Thomas Allin (an online scriptural exposition) Christ Triumphant by Thomas Allin
I'm quite certain you were making the point that the adjective form of aion could not mean "pertaining to the age/s" in that passage because it would mean that it pertained to ALL the ages. So, you have changed your stance on that?
Quote:
Originally Posted by trettep
Aionios cannot mean "pertaining to the ages" because the secret is referred to as being aionios. The secret is not pertaining to the ages. Otherwise the secret would still be kept since we are still in that context - still in those ages.
Paul
No Paul, what you are missing is what I explained in my previous posts to you. Perhaps there is confusion over what one means by "ages". I view an age as a large time period. For example the time from Adam to the Flood might be one age, from the Flood to Christ another age, etc. A man's life could be called an age. I'm not sure if we know specifically how long each age is. But the key point for "eonian" meaning pertaining to the ages is this:
"Pertaining to ages" doesn't necessarily mean it is referring to all ages.
Just like hourly doesn't mean it is pertaining to ALL hours, only some hours (determined by context).
So the secret kept since aionios time is referring to a secret that was kept in a time that is pertainig to some ages - the ages in the past.
Also, I believe the ages do end. 1 Cor 10:11 refers to this point when the "fulfillment of the ages" comes. What happens after that, I'm not sure. Some say time stops. Personally I believe time continues, but we are now in the period after the ages have been fulfilled. JMHO.
So let's step through this with concise comments in order to understand this. Do we agree that aionion must be describing something about "secret" as adjectives do?
Paul
Here is the verse:
Rom 16:25 Now to Him Who is able to establish you in accord with my evangel, and the heralding of Christ Jesus in accord with the revelation of a secret hushed in times eonian,
Rom 16:26 yet manifested now and through prophetic scriptures,
No, here eonian is connected directly with its antecedent "times." So it is times which is being modified by the adjective eonian and not "secret."
It is the times pertaining to the eons in which the secret was hushed.
There is: "the grace which is given to us in Christ Jesus beforetimes eonian" (2Tim.1:9)
No Paul, what you are missing is what I explained in my previous posts to you. Perhaps there is confusion over what one means by "ages". I view an age as a large time period. For example the time from Adam to the Flood might be one age, from the Flood to Christ another age, etc. A man's life could be called an age. I'm not sure if we know specifically how long each age is. But the key point for "eonian" meaning pertaining to the ages is this:
"Pertaining to ages" doesn't necessarily mean it is referring to all ages.
Just like hourly doesn't mean it is pertaining to ALL hours, only some hours (determined by context).
So the secret kept since aionios time is referring to a secret that was kept in a time that is pertainig to some ages - the ages in the past.
Also, I believe the ages do end. 1 Cor 10:11 refers to this point when the "fulfillment of the ages" comes. What happens after that, I'm not sure. Some say time stops. Personally I believe time continues, but we are now in the period after the ages have been fulfilled. JMHO.
See that just makes your problem even worse. Because if aionios can refer to different set of ages then we don't know what ages the aionios life pertain to. We don't know what ages the chastisement pertain to etc... I'm glad I don't have that confusion with my understanding of aionios.
Here is the verse:
Rom 16:25 Now to Him Who is able to establish you in accord with my evangel, and the heralding of Christ Jesus in accord with the revelation of a secret hushed in times eonian,
Rom 16:26 yet manifested now and through prophetic scriptures,
No, here eonian is connected directly with its antecedent "times." So it is times which is being modified by the adjective eonian and not "secret."
It is the times pertaining to the eons in which the secret was hushed.
There is: "the grace which is given to us in Christ Jesus beforetimes eonian" (2Tim.1:9)
The secret was hushed in times eonian.
Excellent, I agree that it applies to the times also. So if the times are aionion then according to your undertanding the times are "pertaining to the ages", correct?
See that just makes your problem even worse. Because if aionios can refer to different set of ages then we don't know what ages the aionios life pertain to. We don't know what ages the chastisement pertain to etc... I'm glad I don't have that confusion with my understanding of aionios.
Paul
I cannot perceive that legoman even has a problem.
"Life aionios" is the life that believers have before the ages, collectively, come to an end.
Likewise, chastisement takes place during the ages before the ages come to an end too.
Where's the problem?
THE EONS END, INDIVIDUALLY AND COLLECTIVELY
Literal versus the KJV Heb. 9:26 the end of the eons / the end of the world
1 Cor. 10:11 the ends of the eons / the ends of the world
Matt. 24:3 the end of the eon / the end of the world
HOW MANY EONS ARE THERE? Col.1:26 hid from eons (Past) / hid from ages
Lu. 20:34 this eon (Present) / this world
Eph. 2:7 eons to come (Future) / ages to come
A minimum of five eons indicated
THE PURPOSE OF THE EONS Eph.3:8-11 purpose of the eons / eternal purpose
Eph. 1:9-1l; PhiI.2:9-l1; Col.1:l5-21; I Cor. 15:20-28
I cannot perceive that legoman even has a problem.
"Life aionios" is the life that believers have before the ages, collectively, come to an end.
Likewise, chastisement takes place during the ages before the ages come to an end too.
Where's the problem?
THE EONS END, INDIVIDUALLY AND COLLECTIVELY
Literal versus the KJV Heb. 9:26 the end of the eons / the end of the world
1 Cor. 10:11 the ends of the eons / the ends of the world
Matt. 24:3 the end of the eon / the end of the world
HOW MANY EONS ARE THERE? Col.1:26 hid from eons (Past) / hid from ages
Lu. 20:34 this eon (Present) / this world
Eph. 2:7 eons to come (Future) / ages to come
A minimum of five eons indicated
THE PURPOSE OF THE EONS Eph.3:8-11 purpose of the eons / eternal purpose
Eph. 1:9-1l; PhiI.2:9-l1; Col.1:l5-21; I Cor. 15:20-28
I don't believe that at all and believe I have refuted that for the real student on this subject.
See that just makes your problem even worse. Because if aionios can refer to different set of ages then we don't know what ages the aionios life pertain to. We don't know what ages the chastisement pertain to etc... I'm glad I don't have that confusion with my understanding of aionios.
Paul
There is no "problem", we simply look at other verses and context to determine those things. For example the context of Matt 25:46 implies future and/or present ages. (Perhaps a preterist might argue its past).
If you want to be picky, your definition has the same "problem" with Matt 25:46 and Rom 16:25. One is future and one is past. How does your definition of "eonian" determine that? By looking at the context.
This whole argument is really becoming pointless. I've said before that I see "pertaining to the ages" as completely compatible with your definition. Yet it seems your stubbornness is simply saying "you are wrong, I am right". Fine. IYHO. We all have our own humble opinions. I don't have a problem with your definition. But there is a problem when you go around telling people, especially others ETers, that all the URs are wrong except for yourself.
IMHO arguing to death the exact meaning of aionios is not a dealbreaker on understanding UR. What is critical is understanding that aionios has something to do with ages, not eternity. And that is what pertaining to ages means, simply: aionios is talking about ages, not eternity. Now if it specifically means "continuing in this age to the next", or more generically "pertaining to some ages which might include this age and the next age(s)", it doesn't really matter as they are both having something to do with ages (ie. PERTAINING to ages). Pertaining to ages is generic, continuing in this age/next age is more specific.
You are entitled to your opinion but please don't make a mountain out of a molehill by proclaiming the rest of us URs are stuck or "trapped" by our understanding of what aionios means, because that is a lie. It doesn't reflect well on what we are all saying and simply stirs up strife. I don't feel trapped by my understanding of aionios, it is the best understanding I have right now. Everyone here is trying to understand the Greek as best they can.
Ironmaw to Fundamentalist
"If your goal is 'to grow in holiness with a correct heart' as you say,
then stop telling people that their loved ones who died while not being Christian are burning in hell or are going to be tortured for ever ... Stop spreading spiritual terror and start loving your enemies and praying that God will save all people."
1Timothy 2:1 and 4
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fundamentalist
You people make me laugh, sitting there at your computer, with stuffed bellys and criticizing the men who did their best, and gave their lives to get us these translations. It is absolutely sad.
How do you know what our circumstances are Fundy?
And what does physical hunger have to do with understanding truth?
First you say that legoman is "full of pride" simply because he is able to give reasons for the hope that is in him.
And now you make the blanket statement that we Universal Reconciliationists "sit at our computers with stuffed bellys."
Do you know what is "absolutely sad" to me?
That anyone can do as much laughing as Calvinist Fundamentalist does on his posts, or that they can even ever crack a smile for that matter, all the while believing that God created some of His creatures to sustain them alive in an inescapable state of eternal suffering forever, presumably for the purpose of eternally demonstrating to everyone how "holy" He is.
Several Calvinists have told me that the fact that I can't believe that shows that I am not one of the elect and I therefore am going to have to suffer forever.
That was the kind of thinking that caused my twelve year breakdown 1966-78. I'm 70 years old now.
If I truly believed the Bible teaches that, I would choose to live out my life as an agnostic, hoping to find out after I die that God is not really like that.
Fortunately for me I learned there are people like Ray Prinzing (my hero and mentor), and Ray's friend J. Preston Eby, and another friend of both of them, Canadian, George Hawtin, who see an infinitely different God in the Bible. The writings of all three of these men can be Googled up on the internet.
There is no "problem", we simply look at other verses and context to determine those things. For example the context of Matt 25:46 implies future and/or present ages. (Perhaps a preterist might argue its past).
If you want to be picky, your definition has the same "problem" with Matt 25:46 and Rom 16:25. One is future and one is past. How does your definition of "eonian" determine that? By looking at the context.
This whole argument is really becoming pointless. I've said before that I see "pertaining to the ages" as completely compatible with your definition. Yet it seems your stubbornness is simply saying "you are wrong, I am right". Fine. IYHO. We all have our own humble opinions. I don't have a problem with your definition. But there is a problem when you go around telling people, especially others ETers, that all the URs are wrong except for yourself.
IMHO arguing to death the exact meaning of aionios is not a dealbreaker on understanding UR. What is critical is understanding that aionios has something to do with ages, not eternity. And that is what pertaining to ages means, simply: aionios is talking about ages, not eternity. Now if it specifically means "continuing in this age to the next", or more generically "pertaining to some ages which might include this age and the next age(s)", it doesn't really matter as they are both having something to do with ages (ie. PERTAINING to ages). Pertaining to ages is generic, continuing in this age/next age is more specific.
You are entitled to your opinion but please don't make a mountain out of a molehill by proclaiming the rest of us URs are stuck or "trapped" by our understanding of what aionios means, because that is a lie. It doesn't reflect well on what we are all saying and simply stirs up strife. I don't feel trapped by my understanding of aionios, it is the best understanding I have right now. Everyone here is trying to understand the Greek as best they can.
Be well...
If you want to believe that aionios means "pertaining to the ages" then obviously the arguments I have given so far have not been enough to convince you otherwise. But at some point when you actually do look into this matter (because it is obvious to me that you haven't looked as deeply as you need to) then you will understand it cannot mean "pertaining to the ages".
Paul
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I'm quite certain you were making the point that the adjective form of aion could not mean "pertaining to the age/s" in that passage because it would mean that it pertained to ALL the ages. So, you have changed your stance on that?
Where is the problem?
