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Heartsong, freewill has nothing to do with salvation, freewill has to do with leaving the child phase in our life and going on to perfection.
Paul said he had to give milk unto the babes when those babes should have been eating meat.
Paul exhorted people to grow up in Christ and not stay as babes in Him.
There is a difference between a babe in Christ and an adult in Christ.
A babe has its parents do everything for it
An adult works for themselves
A babe is like the mule and horse that has no understanding, moved about by bit and bridle.
An adult needs no bit and bridle as it can freely chose for itself.
Freewill has nothing to do with salvation per say it has to do with maturing in Christ.
I know this won't make me any friends, but what most UR'ers teach is milk, for most teach we are led about by bit and bridle and cannot make any freewill choices of our own.
Only a babe is fed by its parents, but an adult will feed themselves from all that is on the table.
Think about ALL the differences between a babe and an adult and maybe you will be able to see what I am talking about.
No disagreement here. My point was that it is because God has chosen us that we are enabled to choose to grow up in him. However, I do believe that not all are chosen to be saved in this age - which does not mean they shall be "forever" condemned, as the ETers believe and teach. It is God who cut off the natural branches to graft in others, for example. Ultimately it is HIS STORY and without him we can do nothing. I do think that no matter how mature we become in Christ, we are still dependent on the sovereignty of his will in any situation (as the story of Job illustrates). It is a matter of being willing/obedient even unto death that settles a person. It is never any use to resist God's sovereign will.
There is no "free will"......God chooses US, and we submit because HE WILLS IT. I don't understand how a calvinist can believe that God chooses us and not believe in Universalism.
Me either! And I'm so glad I don't TRY to understand it any longer!
I borrowed this from another thread. Legoman I pray you don't mind.
Now many in here know I adopt a Calvinist approach to scripture but like I tell many Calvinist to not have a dogmatic approach about salvation primarily dealing with God's sovereignty vs man's will-that our will has nothing to do with salvation. I believe that is both dangerous and not biblical.
There are scriptures that support that God was willing but man's will wasn't. I personally believe this is a paradox in the bible. Yes It is God who opens our eyes and saves us but God is very clear in scripture that we are responsible some how if we are not saved.
(Luke 13:34) "O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, the city that kills the prophets and stones those sent to her! How often I wanted to gather your children together, just as a hen gathers her brood under her wings, and you would not have it!
There is a great tenderness in these words, as seen in imagery of a hen with chickens. This outpouring of divine compassion foreshadows His weeping over the city as He approached it for the final time, clearly these are deep sincere emotions. "I wanted....you would not.I "willed", but you "willed not". Christ repeated expression of grief over the plight of Jerusalem do not diminish the absolute sovereignty over all that happens. Nor should the truth of divine sovereignty be used to depreciate the sincerity of His compassion. Yet we see God willing, begging, pleading and the Jews stubborness rejecting Him.
God will open all of our eyes, we still have the option to look or not. That is our free will.
The Jews chose to reject God. That was their choice.
God will open all of our eyes, we still have the option to look or not. That is our free will.
The Jews chose to reject God. That was their choice.
Not true. That's what the Catholics were saying as they murdered many of them..
Instead, Jesus prophesied that they would be given a "spirit of slumber, eyes that they should not see, and ears that they should not hear unto this day."
The Jews are in no way "guilty" for not seeing, since it was God who made them blind!
There is no "free will"......God chooses US, and we submit because HE WILLS IT. I don't understand how a calvinist can believe that God chooses us and not believe in Universalism. Calvinism makes no sense otherwise. God put us all here only to select a certain few to save? Don't think so.
Ilene,
Jesus quotes Isaiah 6:9 He said, "Go and tell this people: " 'Be ever hearing, but never understanding; be ever seeing, but never perceiving.'
when the disciples asked: "Why do you speak to the people in parables?"
He replied, "The knowledge of the secrets of the kingdom of heaven has been given to you, but not to them. Whoever has will be given more, and he will have an abundance. Whoever does not have, even what he has will be taken from him."
This is why I speak to them in parables ... In them is fulfilled the prophecy of Isaiah"
\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\
Point is ...
It's not for us to ask why some are given the secret while others not to them.
Proverbs 3:5 speaks to the falseness of Calvinism and Universalism
Trust God ... he knows what is fair, right, and just
lean not on your own understanding;
God doesn't need or want a co-pilot, that's why Jesus said what he did....
Brace yourself Ilene...Job 38:3
Brace yourself like a man; I will question you, and you shall answer me.
Most importantly....it's God who decides who are his vs who are not. And he will put you in perspective:
Isaiah 45:11
"This is what the LORD says— the Holy One of Israel, and its Maker: Concerning things to come, do you question me about my children, or give me orders about the work of my hands?
Isaiah 29:16
You turn things upside down, as if the potter were thought to be like the clay! Shall what is formed say to him who formed it, "He did not make me"? Can the pot say of the potter, "He knows nothing"?
Isaiah 40:14
Whom did the LORD consult to enlighten him, and who taught him the right way? Who was it that taught him knowledge or showed him the path of understanding?
\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\ You are in danger...Ilene /////////////////////////////
Proverbs 21:16
A man who strays from the path of understanding comes to rest in the company of the dead.
\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\ You are in danger...Ilene /////////////////////////////
Proverbs 21:16
A man who strays from the path of understanding comes to rest in the company of the dead.
Spoken with no understanding at all. Retention of primitive understanding and praising the ignorance it contains is the real danger, twin.spin. You will need to explain why you rejected your God-given intellect and subordinated it to that of our primitive ancestors some 4,000 - 2000 + years ago. That should be an interesting conversation. Ilene's focus on "love of God and each other" is the "path of understanding" we need to be on . . . NOT the twisted path created by the "precepts and doctrines of men."
Spoken with no understanding at all. Retention of primitive understanding and praising the ignorance it contains is the real danger, twin.spin. You will need to explain why you rejected your God-given intellect and subordinated it to that of our primitive ancestors some 4,000 - 2000 + years ago. That should be an interesting conversation. Ilene's focus on "love of God and each other" is the "path of understanding" we need to be on . . . NOT the twisted path created by the "precepts and doctrines of men."
Lest we forget this story where Jesus tested (for our benefit only...for he already knew) if they would use "reason" or not!
Luke 17:11-19 "Christ Cleanses Ten Lepers"
11 And it came to pass, as he went to Jerusalem, that he passed through the midst of Samaria and Galilee. 12 And as he entered into a certain village, there met him ten men that were lepers, which stood afar off: 13 And they lifted up their voices, and said, Jesus, Master, have mercy on us. 14 And when he saw them, he said unto them, Go shew yourselves unto the priests. And it came to pass, that, as they went, they were cleansed.
Here, Jesus "commanded" that they go to the priests.
15 And one of them, when he saw that he was healed, turned back,and with a loud voice glorified God. 16 And fell down on his face at his feet, giving him thanks: and he was a Samaritan. (John 4:20, Luke 10:33)
Since Samaritans worship in the mountain (obviously he's never gone to the priests)...but willing at first to do so because he had faith in Jesus words...until he witnessed his own healing before he reached his destination...thus used "reason".
17 And Jesus answering said, Were there not ten cleansed? but where are the nine? 18 There are not found that returned to give glory to God, save this stranger. 19 And he said unto him, Arise, go thy way: thy faith hath made thee whole.
Lest we forget this story where Jesus tested (for our benefit only...for he already knew) if they would use "reason" or not!
Luke 17:11-19 "Christ Cleanses Ten Lepers"
11 And it came to pass, as he went to Jerusalem, that he passed through the midst of Samaria and Galilee. 12 And as he entered into a certain village, there met him ten men that were lepers, which stood afar off: 13 And they lifted up their voices, and said, Jesus, Master, have mercy on us. 14 And when he saw them, he said unto them, Go shew yourselves unto the priests. And it came to pass, that, as they went, they were cleansed.
Here, Jesus "commanded" that they go to the priests.
15 And one of them, when he saw that he was healed, turned back,and with a loud voice glorified God. 16 And fell down on his face at his feet, giving him thanks: and he was a Samaritan. (John 4:20, Luke 10:33)
Since Samaritans worship in the mountain (obviously he's never gone to the priests)...but willing at first to do so because he had faith in Jesus words...until he witnessed his own healing before he reached his destination...thus used "reason".
17 And Jesus answering said, Were there not ten cleansed? but where are the nine? 18 There are not found that returned to give glory to God, save this stranger. 19 And he said unto him, Arise, go thy way: thy faith hath made thee whole.
Universalism denies existence, that is why....well among some other reasons (your "don't think so" is pretty valueless as you do not explain your self, and in this world of ours your opinion is quite worthless like the rest of us). The god somewhere said that one must take up one's own cross (this of course, applies to the elect but the expectation is for the race as a whole {the "called out ones" as the greek would have it; so called out from what? Well, if the bible means any thing anymore, and as we advance into the future, the bible correspondingly mean less and the rabbles' opinions increase in value; the bible has a passage where it says something to the effect that the road narrows, and the implication here, in the greek, or so I have been taught, is that those on the broad way are actually bumping up against those on the narrow from the other direction; these others attempt to push the elect back, back to destruction-there is the distinction}), and unless he was an idiot, this god, I assume he meant what he said, and as one carries this cross, it gets heavier-just as he showed us by example, all the way until death.
Existence is a becoming, one is not finished until death, and then infinity. All humans are constructed this way, so the god intends in the temporal: suffering. Suffering is the result of change, which the temporal implies as long as one lives as one must continually change as becoming imposes that upon us. To not change, one would need to just "be", which, for some reason, millions of people just assume they have. As change and suffering, ie, becoming, striving is implied (we all know that one who stops striving is a quitter, and have many rude sayings for him/her; except in our age where one can no longer point out that someone is a loser, and actually must tell them they are a world success and the god appreciates their lack of effort, and in fact the less effort the better, as no one really need trouble himself). Striving implies concern on the part of the subject, and since infinity awaits at the end of becoming, that should raise up in the subject infinite concern, a concern so strong that one would sell all that one has to satisfy that concern (of course today, one need not be concerned as one is a christian by the hard task one exerts by getting out of the womb, poor dumb god-Houdini's greatest escape!), and all other concerns are made relative by it. Saving all to heaven removes the striving and makes the god a liar or a dope, and the elect a bunch of fools. One need not strive and in fact one could eat his way into heaven as he/she comes from the womb born again at the same time as the first birth, one could have infinite concern for money, their sexual orientation, their race, their kitties, etc, and death is a joke, seriousness is a joke, and in fact the creation is a joke, and that seriousness in which the god said to take up one's cross; his expected seriousness in his followers is too much; makes everything he said into a joke, as, even historical christianity referred to his cross as the passion. God expects the elect to have passion, extreme passion, and if universalists think that passionless people will just plop down in the hereafter with out this extreme passion, then they are very mistaken, and like the blind, will lead the blind into the ditch as they mock the god and trick themselves and others out of the christian.
When one discusses calvinism, one should acquaint oneself with the literature. Naturally, one should begin by reading what Calvin himself had to say, and the first volume of his "Institutes" is a good place to start-I would very much recommend this read; the second volume has some out dated stuff on the social and such. Luther's "Bondage of the Will" may also give some perspective on how these guys thought in relation to universalism, if one is obsessed with that, and then see how calvinism denies universalism and answer your own ignorance. For objective thought, which universalism would fall under, and subjective thought, where passion would fall under, I would suggest Kierkegaard.
In becoming, one is in between thought and act, and time supplies the motion, or sense of motion. Thought abstracts existence, therefore, one loses existence with thought and existence becomes only a possible, until that possible is annulled by the act-the process is existing, living, and repeats often. Usually one thinks then acts; everyone nearly does this, but then one can act and think in trivial ways making their existence trivial; for example, Paris Hilton. One can ponder the stars, Socrates gave that up as it did little for existence and brought one into abstraction, maybe Mr Hawking is an example, maybe. Course there are other ways to make ones life besides a triviality; a joke, squandering, pure thought, thoughtless, aesthetic, etc. Universalism is an abstraction because it deals with an "infinite" number, draws one out of one's own concern, thereby doing away with ethics; one should be concerned with oneself, one's own existence, while realizing as one is concerned for others, one has little power over the other's essential existence, as that other is an abstraction for me: that is why the christian has election, because although one has power over oneself, that power is very limited as well, and it is highly unlikely a "becoming" person, in approximate objectivity, truly could take in an eternal existence and decide such a thing (one has a relative who is dying and uses the death as an occasion to debunk a hell {as if a truth of hell would depend upon an event that happens all the time to everyone-one would think that after the billions, death would be rather droll now and it is in the abstract [jokes, movies, fake concern, etc]; but everyone, in the back of their heads know that their death is no joke-rather like Paris; a hell, if it is, is there weather you die or not, or believe it to be there or not}, and, if that was the intention, then he uses a death as something trivial, wants to ponder another's death and pull that one's life and one's own, into abstraction). The exhortation to lift up one's own cross thrusts one into existing and drops the concern for the "infinite number". The god (the concept as developed to a high state in christianity-not the flunky god that one reads so much about in this so called christian thread because christians now want just the beautiful and the thoughtless; a lack of understanding oneself in one's "faith"), can be concerned with the "infinite", as he is not in between thought and act with the need for time, as that in-betweenness is only for the "becoming".
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"reason"
) if they would use "reason" or not!
