A Question for Mike555 (lordship, disciple, Kingdom, worship)
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Think of it like this ... Some guy comes from a far away land smiling and rejoicing crying ... "be of good cheer i bring good news, God is going to torture you and everyone you love when you die. But if you believe what i tell you, you will not be tortured ..."
To which i would respond ... "but what about my mother and father who have passed away, and my dead wife and son?"
Then he would say ... "oh no, to bad for them God is already torturing them. Just forget about them and believe me anyway and you can save yourself" ...
I would not be happy to see him coming, and his feet would not be beautiful to me in the slightest.
This whole thing reminds me of the cartoon movie "the transformers" ... When the autobots were on that planet with the sharktecons ... The autobots were captured by the multi-faced giant head robots who were condemning everyone they captured. They would judge them either innocent or guilty, but regardless of whether or not they were announced innocent or guilty, they were condemned anyway.
One of the autobots when being judged was asked how he pleaded, to which he replied ... "spare me this mockery of justice!" ...
That is how i feel about the "good news" of eternal torture and or annihilation. To these doctrines i can only say, "spare me this mockery of love and mercy and everything that is truly good!"
I fail to comprehend then how you could accept the message you believe to be taught by Christ and the apostles as being Good news. Your friends who you love burning in hell as you believe is not something i would consider good news. It seems the term Gospel is then only a mockery of true love and mercy.
Dan 12:12 And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame [and] everlasting contempt.
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And when the message was first taught to the gentiles? I cant believe that the gentiles who heard it and had family members such as wives and children and parents etc. who died outside of the knowledge of the message that was being preached to them could have accepted it or much less considered it Good news.
Wait a minute...are you saying that the dead that died not knowing about Jehovah....Christ...the One True God...get a chance at Heaven?
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The vast majority of Gods creation being tortured for ever is the farthest things from good news i have ever heard. To say that i am saved from it is the good news, is like dressing up a turd with a cherry and some whipped cream. It hardly changes the nature of the news.
The Jews...kept God to themselves...they shined that lamp sporadically and veered off the road and began worshipping other gods on many occasions. Why was their lampstand removed from them?
Why did God turn it over to the Gentiles?
These are questions that beg an answer, and the scripture has those answers. The Jews, of the first century, most notably the ones who crucified Christ, I believe, were well aware of who He really was.
Because their cup was full, and their sins overflowing, their blindness was ordained. They couldn't see past their own greed. They crucified Christ to protect their way of life, and in turn, were damned forever and their lampstand removed and handed over to us.
Why do you think Peter had to eat unclean food?
Christ did not preach about love only, He preached heavily upon judgement. Judgement on which one receives in denial or acceptance of Christ. His tone changed on various occasions. Here's one, that doesn't speak anything about mercy and love:
Mark 9:43 And if thy hand offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter into life maimed, than having two hands to go into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched:
We can't pick and choose what scripture says, we have to take it for what it says, entirely. God is neverchanging, He is constant, yet He is merciful, and loving, but jealous and judgemental.
It is mankind who changes, rearranges and distorts God's point of view.
Christ did not preach about love only, He preached heavily upon judgement. Judgement on which one receives in denial or acceptance of Christ. His tone changed on various occasions. Here's one, that doesn't speak anything about mercy and love:
Mark 9:43 And if thy hand offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter into life maimed, than having two hands to go into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched:
Hell is really Gehennna.. or valley of himmom so the verse really reads... and if thy had offend thee, cut it off: for it is better for thee to enter into life maimed, than having two hands to go into the valley of Hinnom. into the fire that is never quenched...
Do you know what the valley of Hinnom means? It is not hell as you picture it...
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We can't pick and choose what scripture says, we have to take it for what it says, entirely. God is neverchanging, He is constant, yet He is merciful, and loving, but jealous and judgemental.
It is mankind who changes, rearranges and distorts God's point of view.
God wanted salvation for all... has he changed his mind and only given salvation to some in this "better" covenant?
We can't pick and choose what scripture says, we have to take it for what it says, entirely. God is neverchanging, He is constant, yet He is merciful, and loving, but jealous and judgemental.
It is mankind who changes, rearranges and distorts God's point of view.
This is a plea to remain ignorant and blindly adhere to primitive interpretations and understandings of God. It is these very mankind derived views of God that you wish to maintain in the face of 2000+ years of human knowledge. Changing the primitive intepretations of God produced by savages is NOT God changing . . . it is humankind getting smarter and understanding God better. Jealousy is a negative human emotion born of our human weakness and ego needs . . . God has NO weakness or ego needs to protect. To attribute to God ANY of the negative human emotions born of our human weaknesses is to blaspheme God's perfection. God is LOVE . . . there is NO jealousy, wrath, anger, hatred, vengeance, etc. . . . in Him.
Dan 12:12 And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting(olam) life, and some to shame [and] everlasting(olam) contempt.
The word there translated everlasting is the Hebrew word olam, which has been proven not to mean everlasting or eternal at all, but only an unspecified period of time. For instance Jonah used the word olam to describe the amount of time he was in the belly of the whale ... 3 days is hardly an eternity.
"The earth with her bars was about me forever [olam]." Jonah 2:6.
This is just one of many examples of how the word olam was mistranslated as everlasting or forever or eternal etc.
The actual literal meaning of the word olam is "beyond the horizon."
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Wait a minute...are you saying that the dead that died not knowing about Jehovah....Christ...the One True God...get a chance at Heaven?
Of course, i believe as i have stated many times that the fiery judgments of God are for the purification and cleansing of them that or so judged. Not simply for their torments.
Malachi 3:2-3
"But who may abide the day of his coming? and who shall stand when he appeareth? for he is like a refiner's fire, and like fullers' soap: 3 And he shall sit as a refiner and purifier of silver: and he shall purify the sons of Levi, and purge them as gold and silver, that they may offer unto the LORD an offering in righteousness" ...
Since the death and resurrection of Christ the judgments that where once reserved for Israel have been given to all people of all nations. That is why the word basanizō is used to refer to the effects of the fiery judgments of God in revelations, though it is translated as torment. A basanizō is a touchstone used in the process of refining metals. It is used to test the quality of the metals being purified. Also the symbolism of fire is one of cerimonial purification. As well as the symbol of sulfur, which was used to ward of pestilence and to purify the air of diseases ... It was also used as an incense for the purification and sanctification of holy relics which were used in religious ritual not only by the Hebrews but by many ancient cultures.
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The Jews...kept God to themselves...they shined that lamp sporadically and veered off the road and began worshipping other gods on many occasions. Why was their lampstand removed from them?
They were cut off to graft in the gentile nations. God Blinded their eyes so that they would not believe and so that they would kill Jesus. Jesus understood this and that he had to die, that is why he prayed to god to forgive them while he was hanging on the cross. He prayed ... "Father forgive them they know not what they do" ...
I believe God will answer his prayer... Also remember what Paul said about it ...
1 I say then, Hath God cast away his people? God forbid. For I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin. 2God hath not cast away his people which he foreknew. Wot ye not what the scripture saith of Elias? how he maketh intercession to God against Israel saying, 3 Lord, they have killed thy prophets, and digged down thine altars; and I am left alone, and they seek my life. 4 But what saith the answer of God unto him? I have reserved to myself seven thousand men, who have not bowed the knee to the image of Baal. 5 Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace. 6 And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then it is no more grace: otherwise work is no more work. 7What then? Israel hath not obtained that which he seeketh for; but the election hath obtained it, and the rest were blinded. 8 (According as it is written, God hath given them the spirit of slumber, eyes that they should not see, and ears that they should not hear;) unto this day. 9 And David saith, Let their table be made a snare, and a trap, and a stumblingblock, and a recompence unto them: 10 Let their eyes be darkened, that they may not see, and bow down their back alway. 11 I say then, Have they stumbled that they should fall? God forbid: but rather through their fall salvation is come unto the Gentiles, for to provoke them to jealousy. 12 Now if the fall of them be the riches of the world, and the diminishing of them the riches of the Gentiles; how much more their fulness? 13 For I speak to you Gentiles, inasmuch as I am the apostle of the Gentiles, I magnify mine office: 14 If by any means I may provoke to emulation them which are my flesh, and might save some of them. 15For if the casting away of them be the reconciling of the world, what shall the receiving of them be, but life from the dead? 16 For if the firstfruit be holy, the lump is also holy: and if the root be holy, so are the branches. 17And if some of the branches be broken off, and thou, being a wild olive tree, wert graffed in among them, and with them partakest of the root and fatness of the olive tree; 18 Boast not against the branches. But if thou boast, thou bearest not the root, but the root thee. 19 Thou wilt say then, The branches were broken off, that I might be graffed in. 20 Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear: 21 For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee. 22 Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off. 23 And they also, if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be graffed in: for God is able to graff them in again.24 For if thou wert cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature, and wert graffed contrary to nature into a good olive tree: how much more shall these, which be the natural branches, be graffed into their own olive tree? 25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in. 26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob: 27For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins. 28 As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the father's sakes. 29 For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance. 30 For as ye in times past have not believed God, yet have now obtained mercy through their unbelief: 31Even so have these also now not believed, that through your mercy they also may obtain mercy. 32For God hath concluded them all in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon all. 33 O the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! how unsearchable are his judgments, and his ways past finding out!34 For who hath known the mind of the Lord? or who hath been his counsellor? 35 Or who hath first given to him, and it shall be recompensed unto him again? 36For of him, and through him, and to him, are all things: to whom be glory for ever. Amen.
Why did God turn it over to the Gentiles?
These are questions that beg an answer, and the scripture has those answers. The Jews, of the first century, most notably the ones who crucified Christ, I believe, were well aware of who He really was.
God will save them anyway. Even if they do/did not believe in life. Their unbelief and enmity to the gospel is for our sake. Really read the scripture i have posted above, and in as many translations as is necessary to show what it is really saying. That is the purpose of the Fiery judgments of God. The wages of sin is death,not eternal torture. God will judge the wicked and unbelievers not for vindictiveness, but out of love. The fiery judgemnts will teach them righteousness and save them from death.
Isa 26:9
With my soul have I desired thee in the night; yea, with my spirit within me will I seek thee early: for when thy judgments are in the earth, the inhabitants of the world will learn righteousness.
Because their cup was full, and their sins overflowing, their blindness was ordained. They couldn't see past their own greed. They crucified Christ to protect their way of life, and in turn, were damned forever and their lampstand removed and handed over to us.
Why do you think Peter had to eat unclean food?
God blinded them according to Paul for the very reason that they should kill Christ. And so that the gentile nations should receive mercy as well.
25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in. 26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob: 27For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.
Last edited by Ironmaw1776; 10-11-2009 at 06:49 PM..
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