Are Babies Who Have Not Been Saved Comdemned To Hell? (translate, blood)
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When the son of King David died, David tells us that he would one day go to be with his son.
I assume that King David is going to be in the Kingdom of Christ, so that means that this child would also be in the future Kingdom of Christ...
This hints to us that all children of such a youg age are going to be in the kingdom.
Now, this is in agreement with what Paul tells us of his own childhood.
Paul says that he once was alive before the law came..This I believe is talking about his life as a little child.
Then Paul says that as he got older the Law came.
This must mean that he reached the age that according to Jews was the age where the Law has rule over you and you become an official Jew.
Paul next tells us that once he was under the Law, sin sprang forth from his heart because of the opportunity it has on people under the law.
Once sin entered into the life of Paul he says that he was not "dead"
So to sum up.
The bible appears to offer little children "UNIVERSAL SALVATION", right up to that age where we as people first begin to fall in sin.
At that point we respond to sin and we die...
This would also then be the same age where we can turn to Christ and become Born again...
Alan,
When does a person recieve their soul?
Ezekiel 18:20
"The soul who sins is the one who will die"
Psalm 51:5
Surely I was sinful at birth, sinful from the time my mother conceived me.
#1 - at the grave I watch them lower the casket into the vault, and lower the lid...I look down and I know one thing is true...The "soul" of my friend is not down there.
#2 - when did "you" become you?
We Christians hold that the earliest physical life can begin is at conception...
But this "soul" business is even more uncertain than knowing when a "person is a person"
So, the only answer to give and be safe is....
That when God first loved me, then I was a soul...
Im not sure we are 'given"a soul
I believe we are souls wrapped in flesh.
The body dies and returns to what it actually is...."dust"
and at death the soul go to be with the Father because that is where the nature of the Soul is at rest.
But when does a soul start?
Thats a question for the Bible Big brains...
My answer is that we have to be careful and always allow for the doubt we have of our answers...
so the best answer is to turn the question into another question... When did God first Love me as me?
I know you would say that "household" doesn't include babies, or when Jesus commands to bring "little ones" to him because the Kingdom belongs to them is not babies.
You do realize Jesus pick "them" up in his arms...."them" ususally means more than one. Women brought their children. "And he took the children in his arms, put his handson them and blessed them."
If it was just one, wouldn't be said "he took the child"
Since I never picked up more than one baby at a time, how old do babies get to be before you're unable to pich "them" up? (in years)...could you pick the age ...
12, 11, 10, 9, 8, 7, 6, 5, 4, 3, 2, 1, 0+
I'm trying to visualize all these plural words and not have babies being held:
And he took the children [plural] in his arms, [plural] put his hands [plural] on them [plural] and blessed them. [plural]
__________________________________________________ _______________________________________________
But he was circumcised by 8 days of age.
Also the parents offered sacrifices for the sins of the whole family, not just those over the "age of accountability". Baptism like the temple sacrifice of a perfect lamb, is God doing something for us, not we doing something for God.
Last edited by twin.spin; 10-17-2009 at 06:47 PM..
#1 - at the grave I watch them lower the casket into the vault, and lower the lid...I look down and I know one thing is true...The "soul" of my friend is not down there.
#2 - when did "you" become you?
We Christians hold that the earliest physical life can begin is at conception...
But this "soul" business is even more uncertain than knowing when a "person is a person"
But when does a soul start?
Thats a question for the Bible Big brains...
My answer is that we have to be careful and always allow for the doubt we have of our answers...
so the best answer is to turn the question into another question... When did God first Love me as me?
"But when does a soul start?"
For me, I understood this to happen in Adam and Eve when God breathed into his nostrils and the man became a living being
Genesis 2:7
the LORD God formed the man from the dust of the ground and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life, and the man became a living being.
I would say that since man was considered a living being after the breath was breathed, and that a living being begins at conception, then the soul is at conception.
When did God first Love me as me?
I have often thought it to be the best answer given in scripture.
Jesus calls us our brother, God calls us "sons" or "children". Jesus says.. John 17:24
"Father, I want those you have given me to be with me where I am, and to see my glory, the glory you have given me because you loved me before the creation of the world."
And Paul writes:
Ephesians 1:4 For he chose us in him before the creation of the world to be holy and blameless in his sight.
I would say that God loved me as me before the creation....(and no to any Mormons reading this, we did not pre-exist)
I would say that God loved me as me before the creation...
This also is my answer as well.
The problem is, is that there is no hard and fast verse that clearly gives us an answer.
Thus this question of "When is a soul alive?" is very much connected to the question concerning Abortion and "When does life begin?"
The only safe answer is to allow for the widest possible answer...
With our physical life we would answer that Life begins at conception.
that way you are never in danger of taking a life no matter when life actually begins.
With the soul we would say that the answer would need to take into account that God's love of that soul pre-dated creation.
I would agree, Gods love for our soul did pre-date creation. In Psalms, the thought of more than just physical (scientific) is being concieved. That conception is also includes the creation of the soul along with the physical
I praise you because I am fearfully and wonderfully made; your works are wonderful, I know that full well.
My frame was not hidden from you when I was made in the secret place. When I was woven together in the depths of the earth your eyes saw my unformed body.
All the days ordained for me were written in your book before one of them came to be. Psalm 139: 14-16
But to be honest, conception it is a miracle. The soul is a miricle as well. To address the question, the ministry that God does for the smallest of the small is beyond any written words.
I trust that in God who has mercy and love.
Here's yet another verse showing the ridiculousness (and non-scriptural-ness) of the notion of an eternal afterlife 'hell'.
Ecc. 7:1 "A good name is better than a good ointment, And the day of one's death is better than the day of one's birth".
Hmmmmm...
If you read through the bible you realize that the soul = life.
The body + the spirit = the soul...
That said... it is sin that takes life and makes it hell..
Babies don't really have a chance to believe or have faith, yet we all know in our hearts that they are not sentenced to eternal fire! That to me reinforces my belief that God sees us all as little babies..
ALL sinned, All saved.
The amount of grace = the amount of sin (Romans 5-6).
Babies need less grace, we need more but the same outcome.
I need grace BECAUSE of babies! (There's a newborn living in my house right now!)
You need buckets then.. sleep grace, attitude grace, patience grace... oy vey I hope you don't use up all the grace
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